Let's hear it! Who are we voting for?

this country is screwed no matter who we vote for. they all suck!
 
calcium said:
Spatak - I can't believe you had those things to say about Palin. She is beyond warped and a complete puppet who happens to speak very well. Even if I met her I would like her. Look at her! She's height/weight proportional, she's got a nice face, a friendly voice, energetic while calm, and has a presence on stage. I think her speech didn't really address alot of issues but it was entertaining and that seems to win people over. Which, by the way, worries the crap out of me.
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thats exactly why I don't like Obama.

Phate you should do a little reading on history if you think the Bush admin is solely repsonsible for terrorist attacks. While I agree that the events you describe have exasperated the situation but the 9/11 attacks were being planned while Clinton was in office. Iran hijacked a bunch of people in 1980 under Regan, Hezbollah blew up Marine barracks in the early 80's, the world trade center was first attacked in 1993, the list goes on.

We set up bases in "The Holy Land" because that very country was scared to death that Iraq was going to invade them so they let us do it. Essentially selling out their own people.

I agree that our middle east policy is a farce but you can't put the blame on one person or party.
 
calcium said:
Spatak - I can't believe you had those things to say about Palin. She is beyond warped and a complete puppet who happens to speak very well. Even if I met her I would like her. Look at her! She's height/weight proportional, she's got a nice face, a friendly voice, energetic while calm, and has a presence on stage. I think her speech didn't really address alot of issues but it was entertaining and that seems to win people over. Which, by the way, worries the crap out of me.
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btw..in the end isn't that how all elections are won? like i said before "show me a politician that doesn't lie and i'll show you a pink unicorn" they can all say whatever they want to get themselves elected but in the end it's what they do and not what they said that matters but prior to being sworn into office, all we have is their "presence on stage" to provide a gauge.
 
I know I'm probably in the minority when I say this but I really don't think anyone's church should be part of someone's profile. It's a fact of life that some people just go through the religious motions whichout giving it much thought. I went to Catholic school and it had like zero effect on me.
 
spatak said:
church isn't supposed to be a part of government in the first place.
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Thats true but Obama is/was a member of a church with very extreme ideas.

I don't care what religon you are an extremist is an extremist and should nto be allowed to lead a country.
 
I'm voting for Obama because I completely disagree with this war. if McCain gets in, the war will continue and we may even end up starting another one. there is no such thing as "victory" if the purpose of the war is immoral.

The ONLY reason we should be in a war is if we are attacked. We were not attacked by Iraq. So why did we start a war with them? It just doesn't add up. If this is a "war on terror" then why didn't we attack the real terrorists? This war is not about protecting the US, and sadly so many people fell for the lies.

There are also the moral reasons. A democratic executive branch will be more open to social change than a republican one will. Instead of trying to ban abortion, why don't we ban Abstinence Only Sex Education and actually teach people how to PREVENT pregnancies so they don't have to get abortions. But no, sex is sinful according to the far right conservatives. We can't talk to our children about sinful things like contraceptives and sexual communication. We'll just ignore the real issues and hope they do as we tell them and just never have sex until they're married. It will probably end up scarring them for life and make them feel guilty every time they try to enjoy one of the most sacred acts in existence, but at least they won't be sinning.

Change starts with education. We need tax dollars to fund education. We also need people who are open to alternative forms of sex education. Obama is one of those people. That's who I want running this country.
 
Phate89 said:
No, not really. They've only wanted to attack us since we've started interfering in Muslim-nation's politics.

Our involvement in the Iraqi Gulf war and setting up a military base in Muslim holy land, our un-conditional support of Israel and the oppression of the Palestinian people, the over-throwing of Muslim leaders through the CIA, the sanctioning of Muslim nations that don't submit to America's foreign agenda.

Under McCain, Extremists will be fueled and there will be another terror attack sooner or later. McCain is a product of Vietnam and the Cold war, a compeletly different mentality than what we are facing today.

You can't beat terrorism through wars and bombs, Obama understands this...McCain doesn't.
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The interference started in WWI when the west started carving up the middle east (blame Chamberlain here -- he drew his vision of the Middle East on a freaking napkin in a restaurant. Not much thought went into it.). And in traditional Islamist fashion (I'm not targetting all Muslims here, I'm referring specifically to Islamists), it doesn't matter how long revenge takes, just as long as it happens. Therefore, the attack on the US was decades in the making. It wasn't Bush's fault, although he's certainly an easy target :D

Unfortunately, with Putin at the helm of Russia, the volatility of Asia, and the global economic situation, I'm going to have to forfeit my desire to stand moderate with social issues and stick to the political right. There is no room for a namby-pamby President given what is happening in the world today, and Obama clearly doesn't have the balls or the experience to know how to address the Queen of England properly, let alone negotiate with Putin with respect to Georgia.

I can understand that in your eyes, the world is not the same as it was in the Viet Nam era. Granted, we don't have an official "Cold War", but east is east and west is west, and never the twain shall meet. And war is always about power and control (and land, because that is a finite variable). That NEVER changes. That being said, McCain is the only man remotely capable of doing the job effectively.

Lastly, don't fool yourself into thinking Obama really understands the plight of Middle Eastern Muslims. He doesn't. He's simply paying lip service to a specific target population in the US that is so desperately wanting to be understood by the masses. He wants your vote, phate. Plain and simple. The chances of US foreign policy changing under Obama are about as good as a snowball's chance in hell.

Just my $0.02 and opinion ... although opinions are like a**holes ... we all have 'em :)
 
i_love_muscle said:
Just my $0.02 and opinion ... although opinions are like a**holes ... we all have 'em :)
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I've gotta remember that one. that's priceless.

I'm going to make sure that I keep my a**hole to myself, because I think it may be safe to say for most people posting in this forum, that their opinions are already made up.

However, everyone, please, debate away...I love to read your a**holes.
 
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Kraken said:
thats exactly why I don't like Obama.

Phate you should do a little reading on history if you think the Bush admin is solely repsonsible for terrorist attacks. While I agree that the events you describe have exasperated the situation but the 9/11 attacks were being planned while Clinton was in office. Iran hijacked a bunch of people in 1980 under Regan, Hezbollah blew up Marine barracks in the early 80's, the world trade center was first attacked in 1993, the list goes on.

We set up bases in "The Holy Land" because that very country was scared to death that Iraq was going to invade them so they let us do it. Essentially selling out their own people.

I agree that our middle east policy is a farce but you can't put the blame on one person or party.
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I never put any blame on one person or party. 9/11 is a product of 30 years of horrible foreign policy in the middle east.

None of the past Presidents knew how to handle Islamic nations, McCain doesn't either. Obama would be closest to diffusing and getting rogue Muslim nations to talk.

It doesn't matter whether Saudi Arabia allowed U.S to setup military bases because American intelligence should have realized the consequences that would un-fold because of it.

America needs to take a completely new approach to the Middle East. McCain doesn't intend to do this.
 
Kraken said:
The fact that he is tied to an extremist church, he's being compared to Martin Luther King, socialized healthcare, taxing big oil,
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I don't agree with Rev. Wrights "God Damn America" speech...but a lot what the man said makes sense and is true.
 
i_love_muscle said:
The interference started in WWI when the west started carving up the middle east (blame Chamberlain here -- he drew his vision of the Middle East on a freaking napkin in a restaurant. Not much thought went into it.). And in traditional Islamist fashion (I'm not targetting all Muslims here, I'm referring specifically to Islamists), it doesn't matter how long revenge takes, just as long as it happens. Therefore, the attack on the US was decades in the making. It wasn't Bush's fault, although he's certainly an easy target :D

Unfortunately, with Putin at the helm of Russia, the volatility of Asia, and the global economic situation, I'm going to have to forfeit my desire to stand moderate with social issues and stick to the political right. There is no room for a namby-pamby President given what is happening in the world today, and Obama clearly doesn't have the balls or the experience to know how to address the Queen of England properly, let alone negotiate with Putin with respect to Georgia.

I can understand that in your eyes, the world is not the same as it was in the Viet Nam era. Granted, we don't have an official "Cold War", but east is east and west is west, and never the twain shall meet. And war is always about power and control (and land, because that is a finite variable). That NEVER changes. That being said, McCain is the only man remotely capable of doing the job effectively.

Lastly, don't fool yourself into thinking Obama really understands the plight of Middle Eastern Muslims. He doesn't. He's simply paying lip service to a specific target population in the US that is so desperately wanting to be understood by the masses. He wants your vote, phate. Plain and simple. The chances of US foreign policy changing under Obama are about as good as a snowball's chance in hell.

Just my $0.02 and opinion ... although opinions are like a**holes ... we all have 'em :)
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1. More like World War 2. The first extremist group..can't place the name was established in the 40's after the creation of Israel inside Egypt.

2. I think he'll negotiate with Putin fine.

3. Both want my vote. But Obama said he would actually talk to our enemies intead of ignoring them. Theres a better chance that our foreign policy will change under Obama than under McCain ( which would change for the worst ) and I am willing to take a risk and vote for him.
 
Osama Bin Laden's letter to America.

Full text: bin Laden's 'letter to America'

In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful,

"Permission to fight (against disbelievers) is given to those (believers) who are fought against, because they have been wronged and surely, Allah is Able to give them (believers) victory" [Quran 22:39]

"Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Taghut (anything worshipped other than Allah e.g. Satan). So fight you against the friends of Satan; ever feeble is indeed the plot of Satan."[Quran 4:76]

Some American writers have published articles under the title 'On what basis are we fighting?' These articles have generated a number of responses, some of which adhered to the truth and were based on Islamic Law, and others which have not. Here we wanted to outline the truth - as an explanation and warning - hoping for Allah's reward, seeking success and support from Him.

While seeking Allah's help, we form our reply based on two questions directed at the Americans:

(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?
Q2)What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

a) You attacked us in Palestine:

(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years. The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.

(ii) It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history. The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.

When the Muslims conquered Palestine and drove out the Romans, Palestine and Jerusalem returned to Islaam, the religion of all the Prophets peace be upon them. Therefore, the call to a historical right to Palestine cannot be raised against the Islamic Ummah that believes in all the Prophets of Allah (peace and blessings be upon them) - and we make no distinction between them.

(iii) The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.

(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon.

(c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;

(i) These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah, using violence and lies to do so.

(ii) These governments give us a taste of humiliation, and places us in a large prison of fear and subdual.

(iii) These governments steal our Ummah's wealth and sell them to you at a paltry price.

(iv) These governments have surrendered to the Jews, and handed them most of Palestine, acknowledging the existence of their state over the dismembered limbs of their own people.

(v) The removal of these governments is an obligation upon us, and a necessary step to free the Ummah, to make the Shariah the supreme law and to regain Palestine. And our fight against these governments is not separate from out fight against you.

(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

(f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.

(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.

(2) These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of your oppression and aggression against us. It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?!!

(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:

(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.

(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.

(c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.

(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.

(e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.

(f) Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs.

The American Government and press still refuses to answer the question:

Why did they attack us in New York and Washington?

If Sharon is a man of peace in the eyes of Bush, then we are also men of peace!!! America does not understand the language of manners and principles, so we are addressing it using the language it understands.

(Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

.....continued
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............................................................
 
Phate89 said:
1. More like World War 2. The first extremist group..can't place the name was established in the 40's after the creation of Israel inside Egypt.

2. I think he'll negotiate with Putin fine.

3. Both want my vote. But Obama said he would actually talk to our enemies intead of ignoring them. Theres a better chance that our foreign policy will change under Obama than under McCain ( which would change for the worst ) and I am willing to take a risk and vote for him.
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1. The sentiments started after WWI. Check out the Partitioning of the Ottoman Empire and the Balfour Declaration of 1917. There may not have been any legitimate extremist movements yet, Phate, but the negative feelings had already been well-fueled. Moreover, the allies not only carved up the Ottoman Empire, they started controlling their affairs as well. Take a look at a map of the middle east prior to WWI, pre- and post-WWI, and the present. There's a very good reason why it was carved up that way (twice!). If you want to know more, please PM me.

2. Perhaps, but I wouldn't want to take that chance. I'd rather see McCain bitch-slap Putin into the Volga :)

3. I'm not so sure that the US would be better with Obama. I can only hope you're right ;)
 
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