God
- Thread starter LeiYunFat
- Start date
Based on science alone, God wouldn't exists.
However, here's some interesting points (at least to me):
1) We were made by "accident" whether or not a knowing God exists. If we were created by thoughts of a god, then certainly that was accidental creation because we would never exist if a god hadn't thought of it. I view this as no difference from being "accidentally" created by nature. For example, if we were to say that the constant chaos of our early earth created an "accidental" condition for life to evolve, then our "god" would be the earth itself. Why define a god as a living entity? What defines god? If god is spiritual, then what difference would that make with something like the planet earth?
2) The "evolution" argument is invalid in my opinion in that it disproves there exists a god. If anything, it further proofs that there is a god. Why would a god create each creature differently? If I were to make a clay statue, I would use clay from a common pool of clay, instead of buying new ones each day or for the different parts of the statue. Same thing with the creatures of this earth. It would make more sense for a god to use a common pool of information to create the creatures, rather than create each creature differently and by itself. Creating a uniformed law for creatures would make more sense than to create creatures that differ in both structure and make up.
3) Most people argue that without religion, wars would never occur and thus millions of lives would be saved. I find this argument to be both offensive and idiotic. For one, if you were a leader of something, wouldn't you give into what everyone believed in order to gain favor? Wouldn't it make more sense to use what everyone holds as ideals in order to fuel your agenda? For example, look at children playing a game of war. One child is always the leader, and if that child wants to remain leader what does he say to the other children? Usually something like, "tomorrow you can play leader, but today I will be." Everyone agrees - thus the ideal of the group is held together with the false belief that tomorrow someone else will get to be leader. Of course, after a while of realizing the ideal isn't upheld, the children would crush the leader and thus reform would happen. The same has occurred in most wars based on religion. Most people realize that suddenly the war means nothing, the leaders corrupted, and that they were just using religion to uphold their own gains. If everyone liked shoes, then war would be based on shoes. Religion is powerful in that it hold beliefs; in the hands of corrupted, those beliefs can be used against the people.
However, here's some interesting points (at least to me):
1) We were made by "accident" whether or not a knowing God exists. If we were created by thoughts of a god, then certainly that was accidental creation because we would never exist if a god hadn't thought of it. I view this as no difference from being "accidentally" created by nature. For example, if we were to say that the constant chaos of our early earth created an "accidental" condition for life to evolve, then our "god" would be the earth itself. Why define a god as a living entity? What defines god? If god is spiritual, then what difference would that make with something like the planet earth?
2) The "evolution" argument is invalid in my opinion in that it disproves there exists a god. If anything, it further proofs that there is a god. Why would a god create each creature differently? If I were to make a clay statue, I would use clay from a common pool of clay, instead of buying new ones each day or for the different parts of the statue. Same thing with the creatures of this earth. It would make more sense for a god to use a common pool of information to create the creatures, rather than create each creature differently and by itself. Creating a uniformed law for creatures would make more sense than to create creatures that differ in both structure and make up.
3) Most people argue that without religion, wars would never occur and thus millions of lives would be saved. I find this argument to be both offensive and idiotic. For one, if you were a leader of something, wouldn't you give into what everyone believed in order to gain favor? Wouldn't it make more sense to use what everyone holds as ideals in order to fuel your agenda? For example, look at children playing a game of war. One child is always the leader, and if that child wants to remain leader what does he say to the other children? Usually something like, "tomorrow you can play leader, but today I will be." Everyone agrees - thus the ideal of the group is held together with the false belief that tomorrow someone else will get to be leader. Of course, after a while of realizing the ideal isn't upheld, the children would crush the leader and thus reform would happen. The same has occurred in most wars based on religion. Most people realize that suddenly the war means nothing, the leaders corrupted, and that they were just using religion to uphold their own gains. If everyone liked shoes, then war would be based on shoes. Religion is powerful in that it hold beliefs; in the hands of corrupted, those beliefs can be used against the people.
Some interesting points listed since my last point but dont have anytime now to reply.
But i just want to add another quote
"relgion is the unecessary part of whats wrong" in this world
I agree that relgion and be great for changing peoples lives for the good, but theres a lot of other thing not to be to proud of.
*unknown
If morals are not innate, are they what is required to have a system that allows the species to survive. Unfortunately humans are born helpless and require a support system (both physical, mental and perhaps spiritual) to survive long enough to reproduce and perpetuate the race (that brings to mind the biblical proclamation "go forth and multiply").
One might review the systems evolved by other spcies that are very different. Take 3 for example:
1. Elephants: females rule the society, males are outcast, and live solitary lives, found and used for reproduction as needed.
2. Lions: a group containing one and only one adult male and multiple females and young, all other males are ostricised (and the one adult male mates multiple times a day with multiple females).
3. Chimpanzees: All live together in a group ruled by an alpha male, who brutalizes all other members of the group at will (almost continuously).
Are any of these better or worse systems? Each has served to perpetuate a species, which until man became the dominant species on the planet had virtually nothing to fear from any other species, that is they were not the primary prey of any other species and were esentially at the top of the food chain in their relm.
One might review the systems evolved by other spcies that are very different. Take 3 for example:
1. Elephants: females rule the society, males are outcast, and live solitary lives, found and used for reproduction as needed.
2. Lions: a group containing one and only one adult male and multiple females and young, all other males are ostricised (and the one adult male mates multiple times a day with multiple females).
3. Chimpanzees: All live together in a group ruled by an alpha male, who brutalizes all other members of the group at will (almost continuously).
Are any of these better or worse systems? Each has served to perpetuate a species, which until man became the dominant species on the planet had virtually nothing to fear from any other species, that is they were not the primary prey of any other species and were esentially at the top of the food chain in their relm.
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i think that has more to do to ones genotype and the phenotypic effects of the nature they live in. Over evolution its all about the selfish gene, what perpetuates replication will continue to better itself. But successfull gene replication will not always benefit the organism or "machine" that it creates. Such as a male spider that gets eaten up or human aging which allows the new generation to take our place.
Its really ignorant to say religion itself does nothing. Take islam and 9/11, the hijackers were middle class, smart, nothing to do with trade or politics. It was islam that paved the way for extremism to carry out these terrosits acts believing that they would get 72 virgins once they die.
Theres a difference, science has progressed yet religion has not, often limiting progression. We know now that homesexuals mayb be biologically influenced, morals such as allowing women equal value etc. By the way science has doubles our life expectancy.
Again you could say that religion is the unessary part of whats wrong.
i think Sam Harris has some valid and interesting points to make if you wanted to see another viewpoint..
Sam Harris (author) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Religion has always been a great way to keep the oppressed lower classes in line, if you think back a thousand years when the poor lived off scraps and whatever vermin they could catch while the rich lived the life of luxury and decadence, what was it that kept the pesants subservient?
There was hardly any policing to speak of but there was the local preacher telling everyone that God would cast them into hell if they broke the law.
Why did Jesus tell his followers to "pay Cesar what is his" in regards to obscene tax raises? Do what your masters tell you and don't rock the boat was the message there
And what about this whole deal with God being mad at us if we don't believe in him? So he's all powerful but really insecure so creates us all, goes into hiding and then thinks, if they don't accept and love me they can spend eternity in hell? That's insane!
So not only did God flood the Earth creating a larger genocide than Hitler could ever have dreamt of but he also gets angry if you don't love him?
I don't mind people believing in God, a lot of people need to believe because the knowledge that there's nothing after death is frightening. However, I do have an issue when it gets introduced into politics. At the moment the worlds most powerful country is so Christian minded that it affects policy, civil rights issues like gay marriage and abortion have religeous groups pressurising the government and that's wrong.
There was hardly any policing to speak of but there was the local preacher telling everyone that God would cast them into hell if they broke the law.
Why did Jesus tell his followers to "pay Cesar what is his" in regards to obscene tax raises? Do what your masters tell you and don't rock the boat was the message there
And what about this whole deal with God being mad at us if we don't believe in him? So he's all powerful but really insecure so creates us all, goes into hiding and then thinks, if they don't accept and love me they can spend eternity in hell? That's insane!
So not only did God flood the Earth creating a larger genocide than Hitler could ever have dreamt of but he also gets angry if you don't love him?
I don't mind people believing in God, a lot of people need to believe because the knowledge that there's nothing after death is frightening. However, I do have an issue when it gets introduced into politics. At the moment the worlds most powerful country is so Christian minded that it affects policy, civil rights issues like gay marriage and abortion have religeous groups pressurising the government and that's wrong.
i believe in God.
for those who dont,
i guess the only way to prove to a hardened heart that God exists is to wait until s/he dies.
too bad its too late when they have to face God in the day of judgement, having lived their entire life in disbelief, trusting in their 0wn understanding over God's word.
for those who dont,
i guess the only way to prove to a hardened heart that God exists is to wait until s/he dies.
too bad its too late when they have to face God in the day of judgement, having lived their entire life in disbelief, trusting in their 0wn understanding over God's word.
I guess the only way for me to prove for a harderned heart that god doesnt exist
Is to wait until you die
But oops, it will be to late because that is the end
But dont get scared, you were in that state billions and billions of years before you were born and you didnt feel the slightest inconvenience.
Is to wait until you die
But oops, it will be to late because that is the end
But dont get scared, you were in that state billions and billions of years before you were born and you didnt feel the slightest inconvenience.
Feels good to have someone you hate on your side huh haha.
Say if there were a heavan and god, im not even sure if id prefer that even if i had a choice, it doesnt really appeal to me - at least the concept in my mind. I think to live on earth is as amazing as it gets and to feel real lucky you get to experience it, knowing that nothing awaits me on the other side.
Is it this reason that myself compared to a theist, it is i who makes the most of a precious life, inspired by what billions of years of evolution has provided me, possessing the humility and capacity to understand as much as i can for the shear beauty of whats there. Words cant really explain it, i couldnt and wouldnt ever be restricted to a peace of book, worshipping every week something that is very likely to not even exist, a philosphy that doesnt encourage futher understanding and thought but rather a dogmatic system that states what you shall do and how to live your life. Ensuring that it stamps the beliefs on their children to ensure the perpetuation of their religion.
I dont need it, and im blessed for it.
Say if there were a heavan and god, im not even sure if id prefer that even if i had a choice, it doesnt really appeal to me - at least the concept in my mind. I think to live on earth is as amazing as it gets and to feel real lucky you get to experience it, knowing that nothing awaits me on the other side.
Is it this reason that myself compared to a theist, it is i who makes the most of a precious life, inspired by what billions of years of evolution has provided me, possessing the humility and capacity to understand as much as i can for the shear beauty of whats there. Words cant really explain it, i couldnt and wouldnt ever be restricted to a peace of book, worshipping every week something that is very likely to not even exist, a philosphy that doesnt encourage futher understanding and thought but rather a dogmatic system that states what you shall do and how to live your life. Ensuring that it stamps the beliefs on their children to ensure the perpetuation of their religion.
I dont need it, and im blessed for it.
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
we are all guilty, my friend.
and as a Christian, i would describe it as living in love, with fear of disobeying the creator of the universe.
matt: you say you dont know if you would choose heaven if you had a choice?
you do have a choice. the only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ...the other path involves continuously trusting in yourself and mankind, ending up in hell :[
again...we, as humans, are trapped in a 5 sense realm...we cannot understand God's plans for our life, or understand how he created everything...it escapes our comprehension. God's ways are higher than our ways.
As it says in the Bible, man will create his own beliefs and magnify their own "knowledge" above God. I will search for the exact verse for referance.
we are all guilty, my friend.
and as a Christian, i would describe it as living in love, with fear of disobeying the creator of the universe.
matt: you say you dont know if you would choose heaven if you had a choice?
you do have a choice. the only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ...the other path involves continuously trusting in yourself and mankind, ending up in hell :[
again...we, as humans, are trapped in a 5 sense realm...we cannot understand God's plans for our life, or understand how he created everything...it escapes our comprehension. God's ways are higher than our ways.
As it says in the Bible, man will create his own beliefs and magnify their own "knowledge" above God. I will search for the exact verse for referance.
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im sorry to say, but you are not your own judge.
perhaps on this earth, you may conduct yoursef however you want and find yourself flawless in your own eyes, but when that short time is over, judgement from God is inevitable.
im sorry if i come off as insensitive...i really do care for all of you.
perhaps on this earth, you may conduct yoursef however you want and find yourself flawless in your own eyes, but when that short time is over, judgement from God is inevitable.
im sorry if i come off as insensitive...i really do care for all of you.
