tipping your waitress?

[Snezy]

They have to pay a % of their total sales to staff so other members of the staff get a portion of their tips. The % of the total sales is because it's the only way to honestly determine how much money someone made in tips. If they were to go off of what the server said they made in tips that night, then a lot of the other staff members would be cheated out of a fair portion of the tips. This is how it's done at all major restaurants (milestones, earls, etc.), it's commonly referred to as tipping out.

 

[ChefChiTown]

Okay, I will describe the scenario to you in depth so you understand.

You pay 100 dollars for your meal and you don't tip your server.

The server needs to pay the rest of the staff a % of their sales to the rest of the staff. This % depends on the place. It's usually around 2-3%.

So for your table she has to pay 2-3 dollars to the rest of the staff to serve you.

You gave her 0 dollars in tip, she gave 2-3 dollars to serve your table. Therefore she had resulted in negative 2-3 dollars after serving your table.

The type of restaurant you are describing (in which the servers are obligated to pay out their tips to the rest of the staff) are few and far in between. The large majority of restaurants allow servers to keep their tips. If they feel like sharing their tips with the runners and other staff members, it is done out of generosity and appreciation, not obligation.

But, let's assume that your scenario is a common one, even though it is not.

You make it seem as if the server in that scenario would be handing over $2 or $3 per tip to the runner, regardless of the amount of the tip. Meaning, whether the tip was $5 or $20, the server would be handing over the same $2 or $3 to the runner. But, then you turn around and start talking about percentages. Soooo, which one is it? Is the server handing over a preset dollar amount to the runner? Or, are they handing over a percentage of their tips?

If the server is handing over a percentage of their tips, then you have no ground to stand on by claiming that a server loses money if I don't tip them. Because, a percentage of zero is zero. If I don't tip a server, their tip is $0. And, a percentage of that $0, no matter what it may be, adds up to $0. They don't lose a thing.

But typically a server's salary is almost always lower than a cook's. I'm pretty sure it's minimum wage, in nearly all restaurants. And the things that server's have to go through is pretty tough as it is. They are compensated by the extra money paid by tips. Although you may not agree with this, it is the way the restaurant business works. If you choose to ignore this they will get mad because it is a social norm.

When you break it all down to what each position makes on a "per hour" basis, servers almost always make more than cooks/chefs. Servers don't work 80 hours per week - chefs do.

They have to pay a % of their total sales to staff so other members of the staff get a portion of their tips. The % of the total sales is because it's the only way to honestly determine how much money someone made in tips. If they were to go off of what the server said they made in tips that night, then a lot of the other staff members would be cheated out of a fair portion of the tips. This is how it's done at all major restaurants (milestones, earls, etc.), it's commonly referred to as tipping out.

Once again, if a server is "tipping out" a percentage of their tips, how are they losing anything if I don't tip them? Even 100% of zero adds up to be zero - no loss of anything.

 

[Snezy]

The type of restaurant you are describing (in which the servers are obligated to pay out their tips to the rest of the staff) are few and far in between. The large majority of restaurants allow servers to keep their tips. If they feel like sharing their tips with the runners and other staff members, it is done out of generosity and appreciation, not obligation.

That's simply not true, nearly every large restaurant chain handles tipping out the way I described.

You make it seem as if the server in that scenario would be handing over $2 or $3 per tip to the runner, regardless of the amount of the tip. Meaning, whether the tip was $5 or $20, the server would be handing over the same $2 or $3 to the runner. But, then you turn around and start talking about percentages. Soooo, which one is it? Is the server handing over a preset dollar amount to the runner? Or, are they handing over a percentage of their tips?

Once again, if a server is "tipping out" a percentage of their tips, how are they losing anything if I don't tip them? Even 100% of zero adds up to be zero - no loss of anything.

I thought you would understand by my example. Tipping out is a percentage of their sales. Meaning the total of their bills. This does not include a tip. So if you don't give a tip, their tipping out their coworkers on a bill they did not receive a tip on. Thus they are paying other so that they can serve you.

When you break it all down to what each position makes on a "per hour" basis, servers almost always make more than cooks/chefs. Servers don't work 80 hours per week - chefs do.

This may be true, but this thread is not a comparison of a chef's salary to a server's salary. It is about why tipping and why it is important, not only to the business but also to the customer. I personally the tipping aspect of a restaurant is essential to a business's success.

Compare your service at a restaurant such as Milestones to that of McDonald's where their pay is not affected by their performance. I think you will see a major difference in the quality of the service. I think this illustrates the point I'm trying to make pretty effectively.

 

[San2]

That's simply not true, nearly every large restaurant chain handles tipping out the way I described.

Hmmm....I have worked for the Hardrock Cafe in California and in Berlin, and in neither of those locations something like this was practiced. I worked for TGI Fridays in the States and in the UK, and haven't come across it there. I also used to clean at Applebee's, and know for a fact that they don't do it like that either.

Hardrock and TGI both had a 'you keep what you earn' policy. They did have a jar for tips and most of us just threw the money in there, then it got split up amongst the waiters that participated and some others at the end of the shift. That was voluntary though. At Applebee's, waiters were told to keep their tips.

To me, a restaurant that would use a practice like the one you described must have very little faith in their staff, most likely due to bad experiences. To say that a majority of chains do it like that isn't correct in my eyes though. Also, I do not believe that, even if some restaurants do this, the amount to give depends on the amount of the bill. Are you seriously trying to tell me that if a waitress gets no tip on a 100$ bill, she has to go into her own purse and throw 10 or 15 bucks into the jar?

As for your McDonalds comparison, that doesn't hold any water for me either. I had rotten service in expensive restaurants, and brilliant service at McDonalds or similar fast food chains.

 

[ChefChiTown]

That's simply not true, nearly every large restaurant chain handles tipping out the way I described.

I'm sorry. I didn't see you in any of the restaurant business management, restaurant finance or industry-related courses I took while I was in culinary school. Maybe it's because you missed the day where we were educated on the reality of the restaurant business in the United States and informed that what you just said was extremely far from accurate.

My bad.

I thought you would understand by my example. Tipping out is a percentage of their sales. Meaning the total of their bills. This does not include a tip. So if you don't give a tip, their tipping out their coworkers on a bill they did not receive a tip on. Thus they are paying other so that they can serve you.

Once again, you couldn't be more wrong.

Let me explain to you what "tipping out" is:

There are 5 servers working on a given night. There are 2 runners and 1 hostess also working that evening. In total, there are 8 employees working in the front of the house.

During the night, the 5 servers earn tips as they wait tables. Server 1 makes $50 in tips, server 2 makes $30 in tips, server 3 makes $125 in tips, server 4 makes $250 in tips and server 5 makes $70 in tips. In total, the servers made $525 in tips.

The restaurant "tips out" the $525 in tips. So, the $525 is split 8 ways - 5 ways to the servers (who get the biggest cut), 2 ways to the runners and 1 way to the hostess.

You are trying to make it seem like server 1, who made $50 in tips, has to give the runners and hostess a percentage of that $50. And, that server 4, who made much more than that ($250), has to pay out a percentage of their tips as well. This is not true in 99% of restaurants. In most cases, the tips are collected from each server and put into a pot. The pot is then divided among the front of the house employees. In most cases, the server does not split their individual tips among the rest of their co-workers; the pot is.

What you are describing is not "tipping out"; it's piss poor management screwing over the front-of-the-house employees.

Compare your service at a restaurant such as Milestones to that of McDonald's where their pay is not affected by their performance. I think you will see a major difference in the quality of the service. I think this illustrates the point I'm trying to make pretty effectively.

McDonald's workers (no offense to them) don't really "serve" anybody. I walk up to them - they don't walk up to me at my table. They don't take my order - I give it to them. They don't bring me my food or ask me if I need anything - they set my food on the counter and they're done with me.

They don't "serve" anybody - they just hand over a bag (or tray) of food.

And, sidenote - I've never heard of Milestones. I have no idea what that is.

 

[Snezy]

I see you have had a different experience than I have had.

Three out of four of the restaurant's I have had direct contact with have used the same method of tipping out as I described. While they other simply had a per table tip out method (If you had 7 tables, you would pay the busser 7 dollars). Two of the four were major restaurant chains stationed throughout Canada, Earl's and Milestones. I guess Milestones is exclusive to Canada . So to give a very quick summary, Milestones(and Earl's alike) is a relatively high class restaurant that can be found throughout Canada.

I don't believe this is 'piss poor management'. It has a few very beneficial results. Firstly, it completely removes the possibility of the front house getting cheated out of their tips. Since all of the bills are recorded there is no way for the servers to lie about how much money they need to give the rest of the staff. Secondly, it gives each server a lot of motivation. I believe it is fair to assume when offered more money a person will perform at a higher standard. This is where this tipping out method shines, because if you sell more and give better service, your efforts are directly translated into more profits for yourself. They are not diminished by the cut of several other staff members.

The point I was trying to make with McDonald's was not really their service but their attitude. Again going back to the incentive point, a person will be a lot more cheery towards a customer when they know the customer is going to be the deciding how much of a tip they receive. From my own experience, the typical attitude and demeanor of a McDonald's employee, or an employee of any fast food chain, bares no resemblance to the cheerful and effective service to that of a server in a restaurant. Of course there are outliers to both of these cases, but overall I think many would agree to this point.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that if a waitress gets no tip on a 100$ bill, she has to go into her own purse and throw 10 or 15 bucks into the jar?

That would be 10-15% of the bill, the average amount of a tip. I don't expect a server to give a majority of their tips away. They would be expected to give about 2 dollars, subtracted from the rest of their tips however. It's the same for every table, regardless of what they tipped.

For example, if a server had 10 tables and each of the bills were 100 dollars each, their total sales for that night would be 1000 dollars, this is excluding tips. With average service would be expected to make close to 100 dollars that night in tips, this is assuming each customer tips 10%. As a result, they would be required to tip out about 20 dollars, netting them with 80 dollars. However, if they give good service and let's say they were tipped 15% by everyone. Their 100 dollars would increase to 150, while the 20 dollars required tip out the rest of the staff would remain the same, netting them with 130 dollars. Let's explore the latter case, let's say they gave bad service and 2 tables did not tip them at all. Their 100 dollars would turn into 80 dollars, while the 20 dollars for the rest of the house would remain the same, netting them with 60 dollars.

This method keeps the money for the non servers relatively consistent while rewarding(or punishing) the serves with good(or bad) service.

 

[San2]

I think I'll stick with 'piss poor management' and management that tells me to my face that they think I'll cheat them. I don't see the benefit at all. A tip is given to a waiter/waitress as a sign that the customer was satisfied with their service. Why should any waiter/waitress be forced to give up any of that to somebody else? Why should I make up for the fact that one of my colleagues is a a lazy bum who gets less tips?
How can somebody be cheated out of their tips? A) Tips are optional. B) The tip is given to the person who performed the service at the table, not the rest of the staff C) If a waiter/waitress doing their job properly, they will receive tips themselves D) I am not offered more monye. I am told that I have to give part of my money, that I earned by performing a good service, to somebody else. If anything, that would piss me off. I don't see where that shines, and the only way that my efforts directly translate into profit is when I can keep what I have worked for. So no, it's not a motivation at all. Plus, all my motivation would have gone out of the window at the moment where the management basically told me that they expect me to try and 'cheat' the others. E) Taking your example, you are seriously trying to tell me that if a waitress who had 10 tables with 1000$ each, and none of them tipped, she would have to go into her purse and take 20$ out of there and tip it out to the others? Sorry, but I call BS. That wouldn't even be legal where I come from.

Oh, and your cheerful and effective service in a restaurant....you know where that comes from? It comes from the hopes of getting a good tip if they put it on. A waiter/waitress in an expensive restaurant is no more cheerful than somebody who hand you your food at McDonalds. The difference is just that the waitress slaps on a fake smile to extract a tip, while the McDonalds employee can at least be honest, since they won't get tipped anyway.

 

[ChefChiTown]

I don't believe this is 'piss poor management'. It has a few very beneficial results. Firstly, it completely removes the possibility of the front house getting cheated out of their tips. Since all of the bills are recorded there is no way for the servers to lie about how much money they need to give the rest of the staff. Secondly, it gives each server a lot of motivation. I believe it is fair to assume when offered more money a person will perform at a higher standard. This is where this tipping out method shines, because if you sell more and give better service, your efforts are directly translated into more profits for yourself. They are not diminished by the cut of several other staff members.

"It completely removes the possibility of the front of the house getting cheated out of their tips?" Really?

Tipping out (as you describe it), is the epitome of cheating the front of the house out of tips. If you have 5 servers working one night and they are all tipped a percentage based off of the sales for the night or divide the total amount of tips equally, that couldn't be any more unfair.

Server 1 puts in a decent night's work. They are polite, courteous and fairly quick with service.

Server 2 has a perfect night. Every customer is extremely satisfied.

Server 3 is hungover from a big party they attended the night before. They half ass it all night. They aren't personable, the customers can smell booze on their breath and their service is extremely slow.

Server 4 is new. They mess up a few orders and drop a plate or two, but they're trying very hard. And, the customers notice this. Their personality is great, although they are nervous, and the customers respond very well to them.

Server 5 is too worried about their pending foreclosure to focus on work. Their service isn't terrible, but it's not up to standard either. Over all, they have an average night.

How is it fair to tip each of those servers the same amount? How are Server 1 and Server 2 not being cheated in that scenario?

 

[Snezy]

You're not understanding the situation at all. I've described it 3 times now. Re read my posts, the % of sales goes to the hosts/hostesses and bussers, the server gets to keep the remainder of the tips they accumulate. The servers do not get the same amount, what they make is based off their performance.

 

[San2]

So the waiter/waitress has to give part of the money they earned to somebody else. Why? And how does this prevent cheating? And how can they possibly go of the sales instead of the tips made? The whole idea makes absolutely no sense to me, there seems no logic or reason behind it, and there isn't a single benefit that comes from it. If anything, it confirms the piss-poor, malicious management theory - pay the hosts/hostesses and bussers less because you know they will receive money from the waiters/waitresses.

Oh...just remembered....I saw some receipts of super-expensive restaurants/clubs posted just recently. One of those was a receipt of nearly $ 12500. (They had gulped down champagne at nearly $ 1000 per bottle) The article was about how those people had not tipped the waitress a single penny (imagine the outrage). Now...based on your theory....this waitress has to pay 2 - 3% of the amount on the bill to the other peeps. That would make $ 250 / $ 375, respectively. So this waitress has now got to go into her purse and take 375 bucks out and lay them on the table?

Really? Come on....

I asked around amongst peeps I know, and out of 9 that answered and have experience at working at restaurants (most of the largest US and UK chains covered), not one of them had ever even heard of that practice.

 

[ChefChiTown]

You're not understanding the situation at all. I've described it 3 times now. Re read my posts, the % of sales goes to the hosts/hostesses and bussers, the server gets to keep the remainder of the tips they accumulate. The servers do not get the same amount, what they make is based off their performance.

1) In this fantastical scenario you are attempting to make us believe, how exactly is each server's performance judged? Who does the judging? What is judged exactly? Accuracy of orders taken? Speed? Personality? What?

2) You know how else servers get paid based off their performance? They get to keep their own tips.

This is what you don't understand.

I've read your posts and, although you have described a scenario three times now, each scenario has been different - you keep changing your tune. The system you describe is extremely unfair to the front of the house, as it is piss poor management. It is in no way, shape or form fair to the servers or anybody else in the front of house.

Regardless - a server doesn't lose anything other than a tip if I don't tip them.

 

[Snezy]

You still don't understand, and no I haven't changed the scenario at all. This is my last attempt. To put it into it's most basic form:

At the end of the night the server get's to keep their tips but has to minus a % of what they sold(the amount on each individual bill), from their tips and give it to the other staff members.

 

[Iain1974]

If that policy existed in sales, we'd have a mutiny.

 

[ChefChiTown]

You still don't understand, and no I haven't changed the scenario at all. This is my last attempt. To put it into it's most basic form:

At the end of the night the server get's to keep their tips but has to minus a % of what they sold(the amount on each individual bill), from their tips and give it to the other staff members.

I'm not familiar with Canadian law, but what you just described is illegal in the United States. No restaurant (or any other business for that matter) is allowed to force their employees to pay other employees out of their own pocket.

No such scenario exists in the United States. Sorry.

 

[San2]

I'm not familiar with Canadian law, but what you just described is illegal in the United States. No restaurant (or any other business for that matter) is allowed to force their employees to pay other employees out of their own pocket.

No such scenario exists in the United States. Sorry.

I've been trying to say that for the last 15 or so posts....no way that's legal.

 

[Snezy]

These cases of the method of tipping I have been describing, found by searching 'tipping out restaurants'.

Tip shares are based on gross sales during your shift - so that you do not hold back on reporting cash tips.

For example - lets say in an average hour - your sales were $150. If you take a tip averages between 10-22% you could be bringing in as little as $15 and as much as $33 in tips during that hour. That is a lot of leeway - and if they depended on you to report every tip you get (including cash tips) the inclination would be for you to under report so that you keep more for yourself, instead of tip sharing it all. So instead - they require you to tip based on gross sales you made during your shift.

IF your business is largely cash business (people saying 'keep the change' or just leaving bills on the table for your tip) you could easily be underreporting your tips to your employer so that the people who support you as a server in order to get those tips (the kitchen, etc) are being cheated.

There are different ways to calculate tip-share, some places do it on reported tips, usually the way they do tip-sharing is the same way they report tips to the IRS - either by gross sales or reported tips.

And please, get off your high horse - you are not paying a lot of people's salary - the tip was meant not just for you, it was meant to for the entire service. The customer is helping to pay your salary. I cannot believe the greed in your last sentence. Comments like that make the rest of us servers look bad.

Question:
As of a few months ago we have started to tip out 2% of our sales. That goes to the host/hostess and kitchen staff. This just came out of the blue and were told that this wasw the way it had to be. Obviously the other servers were not very impressed, however to me it does make sence considering we cant really do our job without people actually preparing the food.

So my question is what happens if you have to tip out more than what your tips were that day. i had to tip out 20 dollars because my table of 50 people did not leave me a cent. i had other tables that night but i ended up leaving work with -5 dollars.. Is this legal? what should i do?

Answer: Have served for many, many years, Yes, restaurants can and do this, this is a generally accepted practice in States and the tip out can and usually is much higher. Most people tip ok, but the ones that don't ruin it for you. However, you make much more an hour, as we make $2.13 hour here, so you can not compare the two.......the tip out generally is % of sales total to hostess, and % of alcohol to bar. Talk to manager and ask rules and if you are still unhappy, look for another job.

In my restaurant, tip-out is 2.2% of your sales to the bussers, 1.1% to the bar, and .8% to the food runners. We all get paid the same lame less than minimum wage salary. I don't mind doing it, but if I sell $1000 I owe these people $41 dollars regardless of what I made. Last week I got seriously burned while sharing a party - the person I was sharing with made a mistake on her half of the order, so the automatic 18% gratuity could not be added. The party was full of crazy people and half of them thought the gratuity had been added, so we ended up making 15 dollars apiece on a 480 dollar tab. Didn't matter though - still have to tip out on the sales. I ended the night tipping out more than I took home! If we don't tip out appropriately, the staff members can complain to managers and you will be punished, either through channels officially or punitively through scheduling or which sections you are assigned to.

I was just wondering what the experiences of others were.

Question:
I'm trying to find out how tip pools work and what percentage of a servers tips is usually divided among the rest of the employees.

Answer:
Every restaurant is going to be different. Some restaurants the servers keep ALL of their tips and don't have to tip out. Other places, like Red Robin has to tip out 3% of their sales. For example if the sales are $1,000 - they have to tip out $30. $10 goes to busser, $10 goes to the bar and $10 goes to the expo.

Not many places pool all the tips. You would find that more at a local little mom and pop place.

Sources:






All the same tipping method as I described. So I believe it's safe to assume that this method is practiced. Is this enough for you?

In this practice, if you don't tip a server they lose 2% of your bill. So if you had a hundred dollar bill, and you did not tip at all they would be down 2 dollars after serving your table. Not to mention the opportunity cost.

 

[San2]

All I can do is repeat that I worked in several large restaurant chains and never came across this method. I have friends who work in other restaurants who have also never come across this method.

I did, however, get in touch with a friend who's parents run a medium sized restaurant in the States, and asked him if he could pass my question about this tipping out thing on. He did, and this is the reply:

"Yes, tipping out is legal, and some restaurant owners entertain the idea. Nowadays it is very rare though, since the system is flawed - for example, you can never ask an employer to tip out of their own pocket, and they have to be allowed to keep at least 50% of the tips they made if the tips are counted as part of their income. It's a complicated system with a lot of variables that have to be taken into account - basic wage of the employee, is the tip included in the bill or not, how much has the employee made in tips, how much do the bills accumulate to. There are a lot of trap doors in the tipping out system and as an owner, you can easily break the law by missing out on just a small detail.
Personally I would never entertain tipping out, since it shows poor business sense, and little loyalty to your employees. Tips are a method of motivating the waiters to do a good job - to take anything away from that and force them to pay out to others would be detrimental to their overall performance.
Hopefully that answers your question."

So yeah, it's legal, if done correctly. The part about me not giving a tip causing the waiter to have to pay money out of their own pocket is nonsense though.

And it's still a shitty system with not a single benefit in sight. That certainly hasn't changed.

 

[Snezy]

And it's still a shitty system with not a single benefit in sight. That certainly hasn't changed.

I do see plenty of benefits:

• Servers are motivated to give better service because they keep the majority of their tips at the end of the night.
• The hosts/bussers are motivated to give their best service because of the extra money they make in the tipout. More money keeps people happy when their getting treated like trash.
• There is no discrepancy when tipping out the hosts/bussers because the amount they receive is determined completely by solid numbers, not by someone saying how much they made that night.

I don't see why you claim this is a bad system, it keep everyone motivated to do the best service they can. Everyone gets a reasonable share of the tips. Everyone's happy. In the end this will create better service, happier customers, and a prosperous business. Which seems like pretty good business sense to me.

 

[BigLynz]

I don't know if this'll add anything, but I've worked as a waitress before, and we were told to put all tips in a jar, which was then shared with everyone who worked that night, kitchen staff too. It meant the dishwashers got as much as the serving staff - I mean, they did work just as hard, so it seemed fair to me. It was split evenly, so no-one could really complain - if you had a crappy night and no-one really tipped, you'd still get yuor share, and then if you had an amazing night with loads of tips, well it was like balance for the crappy night where you still got the share of tips.

I don't know if it was legal or not (and to be honest, I probably wouldn't have cared) but it seemed like a good system to me

Just my two bob

Peace and love

xXxXxXx

 

[Iain1974]

When ALL tips are pooled, wheres the incentive to work hard?