This is a touchy subject for some!

What is a "true Christian"?

Your point is taken, that some Christians make the world a better place. I liked Mal's counter to that where she said some People make the world a better place.

There are people in all groups that contribute to the betterment of this world. There are people in all groups that contribute to the deterioration of this world.

From this, it can be concluded that religion doesn't really determine good or evil.

Morality handles this and morality is separate from religion in my mind.

Perspective and belief is a funny thing.

I have empathy with and respect for life.

I don't wish to be stolen from, so I do not steal.

I don't wish to be harmed, so I do not harm.

I don't need something to give me some arbitrary definition of "right" and "wrong." If it hurts another being, that's "wrong." That doesn't take a God, a Bible, or a written moral code. It doesn't require anything but basic compassion.

On the other side of that, if it doesn't hurt another being, then I hardly see how it could be consider "wrong" or "evil." That's why I generally have little concern for things that are largely considered "immoral" by the Christian mentality.
 
Steve said:
Are you suggesting you can't have morality without Christianity?
Click to expand...

That's actually not what she said at all. If you look at her original post, she conceded that there exist non-Christians who are "moral but spiritually confused."

But from there, things seem to have devolved into tautology:
- only "true Christians" are Christian
- a "true Christian" is one who behaves morally
- therefore, all Christians behave morally

I personally vote that this thread be closed (either locked or people just walk away from it), on the grounds that no good is going to come of arguing whether there are any non-Christians who are more moral than a Christian picked at random.
 
Chill pill....

I never put words in her mouth. I simply asked a question.

I vote it remains open. If someone doesn't like the thread, they don't have to view it.

If we were closing threads of which no good could come... there would be many more closed threads on this forum.
 
Steve said:
If we were closing threads of which no good could come... there would be many more closed threads on this forum.
Click to expand...

LOL. Probably doesn't matter - I suspect (based on another thread that was just closed) that you won't get a response.
 
That's not really the point. The point is it's an open community for discussion....

Regardless of who may or may not reply, there's no reason this thread should be closed. I would have dropped it last post but you're a moderator now and I'd hate to see the sort of thing where threads are closed for no good reason to start happening.
 
This shouldn't be a touchy subject.

We all need to be less judgemental and more compassionate. I believe that there was a book that went into great detail in that subject. What was that name of that book ... oh yeah the Bible.

"Evidence That Demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell is a book that goes into the direct evidence of a superior being (God) and proof that Jesus Christ existed.

Changed my outlook on my faith. I always thought I needed to believe by faith. Part of me always questioned that logic. This book taught me that you don't need to believe by faith. The evidence is staggering.

It explains the biblical cannon and why the books of the Bible made it in the Bible and others didn't. The 17 books of Daniel and why only one made it in.

The roman historical record of Jesus, Joesph and Mary's birth. The records that describe Jesus crucification and death. The rumors of a resurrection.

The "Dead Sea Scrolls", I do not see any believable way that was a coincendence. When I read this book in the 80's there were 18,000+ direct lines of evidence. I understand the newer editions have the Bill Gates summit to bust the myth of intelligent creation, which Bill Gates later publicly stated that something intelligent formed the universe and planets.

Sure changed my outlook on the subject. I had no idea such evidence existed.
 
It's touchy b/c many people don't like hearing that others have opposing beliefs. I agree with you it doesn't need to be touchy. Unfortunately acceptance isn't a strong point for many individuals and they allow opposition to = personal attack.

Like here you are stating your beliefs. If someone came along spouting off about all the 'overwhelming evidence' with regards to evolution, many people who are in line with your beliefs wouldn't be able to handle it maturely. Vice versa as well...
 
The problem with threads like this is the unreasonable rigidity some people have in their beliefs, such that they're completely unable to look at any outside evidence or contrary conclusions.

I accept that there are many people who have faith and believe in god. Personally,

I have not found a substantial amount of evidence to lead to my own belief in deities. I don't believe in ancient egyptian, roman, or greek gods because I find it very unlikely that they exist and I face little scrutiny because of that. As soon as I say I find the existence of a Judeo-Christian God (which encompasses all forms of Christianity, Judaism and Islam) to be equally as unlikely as the existence of those other gods, all hell breaks loose (no pun intended).

Please note that I said very unlikely because it is impossible to disprove the existence of anything. For hundreds of years they thought that all swans were white, but that absolute was crushed when black swans were found in Australia.

Anyway, the point I was getting to is that even with people believing the existence of any gods is unlikely, there are still great people doing great things. In fact, where this thread currently stands reminds me of a quote from the Nobel Prize winning physicist Steven Weinberg, "With or without [religion] you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

Perhaps that statement is a bit harsh and overly critical of the religious because certainly there are plenty of people who keep it to themselves and don't get involved with being overly pious and doing crazy things. But let's not forget that there is a large segment of society that believes in protesting at the funerals of homosexuals, forcing their women to marry the men they choose and not allowing women to leave the house when they're menstruating. There are quite a few religious rituals that would appear to be oppressive and they're all done with the intentions of doing the purest good.

Maybe this thread should be closed because I'm sure I'm not making any friends with posts like these.
 
I don't see the problem with your post. I thought you explained your point very well. I don't know where I heard this from but, "All wars were caused by religion". At least on the surface that sounds like it might be true.

I have found many people that proclaim religious authority somehow feel superior to others. This is in direct contradiction to teachings in the book that the religion is based on.

Jesus reserved his criticism for the religious leaders of the day. He found them lacking moral and ethical character and misleading his followers. He didn't criticize the hookers, theives, tax collectors etc...

Many proclaimed christians have not read the Bible. Much of their information of this book comes from others who have not read this book.

Why many fight so vehemently, is simply something they feel they should know better than the questioner yet are not able to answer because they have relied on someone else's interpretation.

I noticed many agnostics that seem to be the same way. I believe this comes from the instant attacks by self righteous individuals.

We all need to come from a position of attempting to understand the other persons position. I didn't say agree with it but definitely accept it. Exchange ideas. I definitely learn from everyone I meet. I don't care how smart I think I am.

I hope this didn't sound like too much like a Bible Study class. We are all on this rock for now, let's get along.
 
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