Weight-Loss how fat and metabolism works

[Toddless]

I have to say I have to calorie count, its how I keep track to know im on the right track to the right lifestyle im trying to achieve. To some who has a calorie calculator in their head sure right do that, but i have a handy dandy app on my iphone and i just input what i eat save, sit my phone down and continue on with my day. I am more aware of what im eating and whats going in but not only am i tracking calories im making sure im getting the proper iron, protien, fiber, ect that I need, its so much more when you have a new life style to adapt to not everyone can just assume they are always eating right. I feel more productive when i count calories.

My problem with counting calories is that I can eat 1,200 calories of Oreos and lose weight, but I'm not being healthy. Counting calories is only good for one thing: losing overall body weight. It's not good for losing just fat, and it's not good for being healthy.

I must say though, that making sure you have proper levels of nutrients is very commendable. I doubt you'd reach your fiber goal for the day on Oreos.

 

[Dollylala]

My problem with counting calories is that I can eat 1,200 calories of Oreos and lose weight, but I'm not being healthy. Counting calories is only good for one thing: losing overall body weight. It's not good for losing just fat, and it's not good for being healthy.

I must say though, that making sure you have proper levels of nutrients is very commendable. I doubt you'd reach your fiber goal for the day on Oreos.

Well thats just being stupid about it now is it, sure you can eat a number 1 on the mcdonalds value meal but thats all you get to eat sir, where i eat atleast 6 times a day by hitting 1600 -1700 calories a day and i enjoy what i eat, something sweet everyday. Of course challenging the idea of 1200 calories with oreos isnt going to work, i mean i guess it did if youre okay with only getting a small ammount of something unhealthy and hope that bides you over to the next day. o.o

 

[Jeanette401]

I will say that 'thinking myself thin' never worked for me. And I tried - maybe I wasn't doing it right or something but... I have no clue what I was doing wrong That doesn't mean I don't believe it worked for Summer - just that no two people are the same, and there is no one size fits all solution.

I've been able to lose weight without counting calories - by doing low carb. And I've been able to lose weight while counting calories - and it's not 1800 calories of Oreos. There's nothing that keeps you from keeping track of healthy eating while counting calories. I keep track of my protein, my fiber and my saturated fat (and to a degree vitamins & other nutrients) at the same time I track my calories. The Internet is a wonderful thing, and so are sites like fitday and livestrong that let you do it all at once!

Calorie counting may not be for everyone, but there's no reason that people who it works for should be talked out of it. I'm of the opinion that no one should be talked out of a system that works for them - just let them know that alternatives are there if they want to explore them

 

[Toddless]

I hope it didn't seem like I was talking anyone out of doing what works for them. If what you're doing works then please continue.

The Oreo example was hyperbole, I don't think anyone counting calories is filling up on Oreos. But I get frustrated when I see a thread on the number of calories in an apple being possibly too high. If you ever question whether or not to eat an apple, then in my book, you're doing something wrong.

You know what it is? I just realized. I'm talking about people that are starting a new system. If they're looking to start counting calories, I would recommend against it for one main reason. The number of calories in a food does not give you any idea about the level of nutrition the food provides.

 

[Dollylala]

The number of calories in a food does not give you any idea about the level of nutrition the food provides.

I will concur with that, now i will say when i pick up a container i look at the back look at the calories, then i scroll down see what the nutrients are and i go okay this has some higher calories in it, but look at how much protien im getting, and fiber and iron wow these calories are deffinately worth adding today just for those benifits, if that makes any sense, thats me personally im not sure what others are doing with the calories they count

 

[summer123]

I will say that 'thinking myself thin' never worked for me. And I tried - maybe I wasn't doing it right or something but... I have no clue what I was doing wrong That doesn't mean I don't believe it worked for Summer - just that no two people are the same, and there is no one size fits all solution.

I've been able to lose weight without counting calories - by doing low carb. And I've been able to lose weight while counting calories - and it's not 1800 calories of Oreos. There's nothing that keeps you from keeping track of healthy eating while counting calories. I keep track of my protein, my fiber and my saturated fat (and to a degree vitamins & other nutrients) at the same time I track my calories. The Internet is a wonderful thing, and so are sites like fitday and livestrong that let you do it all at once!

Calorie counting may not be for everyone, but there's no reason that people who it works for should be talked out of it. I'm of the opinion that no one should be talked out of a system that works for them - just let them know that alternatives are there if they want to explore them

Lol! I feel like I have been quoted out of context and its changed into a game of Chinese whispers!

The reason I said my weight loss came from my mind is because I was sick! I had an eating disorder (I did say this in the original post from which things have been quoted). It worked because if I tell myself 'this food is bad/will make me feel X,/will ruin my life" I wont eat it. Yes everyone can do this, but only a small minority (I hope!) are sick enough to believe what we tell ourselves and so live in fear of ever eating those foods. Add to that the belief that everything will be perfect once you are X weight, the strong belief in that combined and you have yourself a very insular and determind world. You don't 'hear' other people when they tell you that what your telling yourself is cr@p, you don't hear them because your in another world far far away... the world of an Eating Disorder.
Normally there is alot of bad stuff/difficult stuff going on for someone to cut themselves off like that, live inside their own heads and not really look up. It can last years and years and years. But its all inside the mind.

This is why my weight loss was all in my mind: fear and loathing. Little to do with reality.

As far as losing weight in a HEALTHY way goes, it really is calories in vs calories out. Simple as. The reason it may not work for many is because if you don't get the nutrition right and your body isn't working properly as a result, you can find your left craving certain nutrients or that you've slowed right down, not moving as fast = less calories burnt. String cravings = its harder to keep to a calorie controlled diet and in addition, few people really do weigh their foods. Most assume, it can take alot of guts and effort to weigh every little thing before you put it in your mouth and though many think "oh one or two wont hurt!" they will- its the cumulative effect you gotta watch out for.

Sorry but calories is where its at.

 

[Toddless]

Sorry but calories is where its at.

And yet some people become so obsessed with counting calories, or with healthy eating in general, that they've developed an eating disorder in a different guise (orthorexia).

 

[Jericho]

I believe the problem here is taking just one aspect and assuming people think that is it. I myself say it comes down to calories in vs calories out for weight loss. That is true but no one says that is all of it.

Using my tree analogy again, Calories in vs Calories out is the trunk of the tree. Everything else is a branch off that tree such as exercise, portion control, knowledge about what you eat, etc. You can just lose weight with the trunk but when you expand to the other branches as well, that is how you make a full lifestyle change that will keep you healthy and at your desired weight for life.

 

[Toddless]

Using my tree analogy again, Calories in vs Calories out is the trunk of the tree. Everything else is a branch off that tree such as exercise, portion control, knowledge about what you eat, etc. You can just lose weight with the trunk but when you expand to the other branches as well, that is how you make a full lifestyle change that will keep you healthy and at your desired weight for life.

This is really interesting and I like it a lot. Focusing on one aspect of weight loss will not make a happy person, but bringing everything together completes the picture. Well put, Jericho.

Of course, to be devil's advocate, couldn't you also make the trunk of the tree exercise, or knowledge about food? I guess it's all in your approach. My trunk is knowledge about food. Or maybe I've just got a low-hanging branch?

 

[Jericho]

Well, the reason Calories in vs Calories out is the trunk that is the very core of weight loss. As long as that happens, you will lose weight..however if you don't look at all the other branches like exercise and nutrition, you won't get much done for the rest of your life.


ok so I'm still working on the wording

 

[Dollylala]

Well, the reason Calories in vs Calories out is the trunk that is the very core of weight loss. As long as that happens, you will lose weight..however if you don't look at all the other branches like exercise and nutrition, you won't get much done for the rest of your life.


ok so I'm still working on the wording

Well to ME it makes sense that calories in vs calories out is really the base of it all, all those diets ect weight watchers are just different forms of calories in calories out jut packaged all cute with a lil bow on top. If its science and pretty much fact that calorie can make or break you in your weight loss. I would find it to be the base er trunk of the tree in your weight loss journey. I personally think that trying to argue over the fact that calories have nothing to do with weight loss and the other stuff could be your foundation is just like saying no im pretty sure that the sky is green, and the grass is blue. Just goes against the science and truth of it all.

Okay you work out its your basis for your journey, but you arent paying attention to what you eat then you are working your arse off for nothing, cause the calories are the ones that count.

So orthorexia or what not that was called, so some people need to feel wrapped up in something to achieve what they desire, some people have ocd tendancies, it m ay not be 100% healthy but if its what you have to do to succeed in your journey, why not.

 

[summer123]

So orthorexia or what not that was called, so some people need to feel wrapped up in something to achieve what they desire, some people have ocd tendancies, it m ay not be 100% healthy but if its what you have to do to succeed in your journey, why not.

Orthorexia and being slightly obsessive about health and exercise for the purpose of losing weight/becoming fitter are two very different things. One is a mental health condition where problems are projected onto the body and health of, a slight obsession and putting health at number 1 on a priority list is just a lifestyle choice.

Its a bit like comparing an anorexia sufferer with a normal dieter. Two different worlds. One has a mental health condition, the other does not.

 

[Dollylala]

Orthorexia and being slightly obsessive about health and exercise for the purpose of losing weight/becoming fitter are two very different things. One is a mental health condition where problems are projected onto the body and health of, a slight obsession and putting health at number 1 on a priority list is just a lifestyle choice.

Its a bit like comparing an anorexia sufferer with a normal dieter. Two different worlds. One has a mental health condition, the other does not.

but dont some overweight people have a distorted view of themselves, imean i do to an extent mainly in pictures i see something different even perhaps more attractive in the mirror but when pictures are taken i dont regnoize the person in the picture.

 

[Spinner19641]

This thread has opened up a question I have wondered about...

At what point does over or under eating become an eating disorder and therefore a mental health issue?

- is it when the person is harming themselves by being too over/under weight?
- is it when the person is over attentive about they do/don't eat?
- is it when the person thinks they need help?
- is it when the person feels they are no longer in control of their behaviour with regards to food?
- or something else?

'Mental health' gets spoken about a lot these days & I guess I am unclear on the current definition of what defines good psychological health.

 

[Toddless]

Thats a good question Spinner. In my opinion and relating to this issue, I think that when you look at food and see only calories, fat, sugar, or salt, you're on your way to becoming orthorexic. As for when you've arrived, I haven't the foggiest.

 

[summer123]

but dont some overweight people have a distorted view of themselves, imean i do to an extent mainly in pictures i see something different even perhaps more attractive in the mirror but when pictures are taken i dont regnoize the person in the picture.

Anyone (and it appears many people) can have a distorted view of themselves, its often what we feel rather then what we see in the mirror. The difference is people with eating disorders tend to take action and to the extreme, shutting out others around them to continue their ambitions. Often if someone un-eating-disordered feels fat, they can be talked around it, and realise they have a distorted view of themselves (if it lasts more then a few weeks or months it could be BDD or Body Dismophic Disorder). But they may not have an eating disorder.

The thing with eating disorders is that they are about projecting whats going on inside, to the outside where it can be controlled, so where as it starts off as having a basis in some people: eg they may well be larger then they were last year or in comparison to friends, they may even be over weight, it really takes on a whole new life and becomes the be all and end all. Not only the answer to feeling better about their weight but "if I could just lose weight everything would be great" and thats one of the dangers.

Another part of an eating disordered persons behaviour can be as an attempt to deal with or process past events or even ongoing events which feel out of control. It can leave a person feeling helpless and fearful and food and weight can feel like a welcome relief which combined with all the energy and time they give it, can easily be taken to extremes in an attempt to wipe out or ignore the other problems.
Now many people do this to some extent in their day to day lives, but its when it gets too far, when it becomes a way of life instead of something that helps someone through life that it becomes an issue.

See, in a nutshell, an eating disorder is about being controlled by food and weight and not being able to get out of it. Its when emotions become entangled in weight and body size and actions taken control the rest of a persons life so they have no life left, just weight, food and body size. Instead of normal friendships and relationships, it becomes food and weight and body size. So life feels less important and infact of no real importance at all. It can feel very depressing and lonely which then drives a person to stregnthen the food/weight relationship further which further iscolates themselves.....

I guess its really hard to describe unless your in it, but say your on a diet and you are asked out by a group of friends. Well someone with an eating disorder may go out, but they don't really have any connection with the people around them, its just with the calories (living in fear of) or overeating to the point where they have shut everyone else out and are having a relationship with the food- as if anyone else may not as well be in the room.

Same goes with exercise: it may not even be productive exercise- I've seen a few people in my time at the gym who visit and do pretty much the same workout but many times don't even use the machines properly, maximum level, slow as a snail for example. I'd recon they have a form of exercise dependance, using exercise to deal and process all their emotions. Instead of working through them in real life or with someone else, it becomes "if I can just get this workout done nothing else will matter, it will all be fine". A form of control, an irrational belief, real life shut out.

So in answer to your question! Its not only one thing that goes badly wrong with someone with an eating disorder, its many little things which all contribute to a bigger picture. Not everyone has all of them, I have known people with anorexia who were aware they were too skinny for example, but its when your life shrinks and you become trapped and cannot get out. When you live ruled by the very thing you created to help you and it no longer helps you, it ruins your life yet you cannot let go.

 

[summer123]

This thread has opened up a question I have wondered about...

At what point does over or under eating become an eating disorder and therefore a mental health issue?

It is a very fine line and its really based on the person and how they feel at first. Anyone can have the potential to develop into an ED in my opinion (some say its genetic, I don't think this is true) but eventually if things get too bad, its obvious and a fine line no longer exists. For the average dieter who is on the cusp of being too underweight its a fine line. To someone with a BMI of 9 its more obvious. To begin with in most forms of treatment, the person has to ask for help to get help but once their weight gets too low (BMI 13.5 or lower) they are deemed unable to make the right choice and the medical people step in to make the choices via a mental health section.

- is it when the person is harming themselves by being too over/under weight?

BMI Over 30 is obese and unhealthy and the person is harming themselves.
BMI Less then 17.5 and a person fits the criterea for Anorexia, BMI less then 15 and a person is severaly anorexic, BMI less then 13.5 and a person is applicable for a mental health section if they refuse treatment and a BMI less then 10 (*I think*-not sure on the exact number there) and a person is at a life threatening weight- if they get that far, many die beforehand.

People are doing harm to themselves at these weights. With the exception of being lower then a BMI 13.5, its within the persons choice to take action and get help if they chose.

- is it when the person is over attentive about they do/don't eat?

Not, its much more then that, much more life-bound then that.

- is it when the person thinks they need help?

No, unfortunetly not. Many people die before they even have agreed with themselves or anyone else that they need and want help. Its about actions they make- shutting people out, life getting smaller and smaller, weight being disturbed as a result of a fixation on food and weight. I would add that it can go either way, with obesity or being underweight.

- is it when the person feels they are no longer in control of their behaviour with regards to food?
- or something else?

As above.

'Mental health' gets spoken about a lot these days & I guess I am unclear on the current definition of what defines good psychological health.

It is unclear, I think this is because it is a very personal thing. What one persons obsession is, is another persons norm and they are quite happy with. Its not so easy to define and is very individual. Its the same with most mental health conditions, there is a large grey area. One persons struggles are not felt the same way as another persons struggles. It has alot to do with your experience of a problem, your life and guidance on how to process problems and your tipping point or sensitivity I think.

No easy answer- sorry!

 

[Spinner19641]

"if I can just get this workout done nothing else will matter, it will all be fine". A form of control, an irrational belief, real life shut out.

When you live ruled by the very thing you created to help you and it no longer helps you, it ruins your life yet you cannot let go.

So, it is not the behaviour but the way it makes you feel. It's like transferring your feelings of internal security to an external action that, once done, gives you the feeling of being safe in the world (i.e. in control).

But don't we all do that to some extent? We all have our 'habits' that create a sense of security - a favourite TV programme, coffee cup, outfit, person - we're kind of like kids with their favourite teddy bear!

Doesn't the 'action' you take to feel 'safe' (i.e. in control) also have to be destructive in some way to make it a mental health problem?

But I guess the need to feel 'in control' is an issue as well. There is no such thing as control - there is only the perception of control. Feeling emotionally safe is not about controlling the world or ourselves but accepting we are not in control and that we are human and therefore have our strengths & weaknesses.

A lot of people talk to me about being terribly unhappy with their appearance and ask for advice about clothes, diet and exercise. I am wary about giving advice because I am no expert and can only say what works for me (& I don't always get that right either & have to adjust my own diet & exercise programme based on advice I get).

But people go on and on at me putting themselves down and being so unhappy with themselves that I have wondered what's going on with them. I get tired of it becoming a key topic of conversation because I don't want to talk about it. To me exercise is a hobby. I do it. I read about it. I try this and that to see what will happen (if anything). When I get it wrong (as I have recently) I learn and adjust my workout. And I'll only give it so much time to it in a week - I have too many other things I want/need to do in life.

And I don't think my appearance is perfect - I try to look nice but much like my exercise it's only worth so much effort to me.

I just don't get why people (men & women) always have to talk to me about their disatisfactions with their weight or appearance. It really irritates me some days because I don't want to talk about it. And I have tried to understand why people keep going on about it.

But it doesn't sound like they have a mental health issue. Maybe they are just insecure?

Whinge over!

 

[Spinner19641]

Summer123 - I was busy replying to your previous post & just read the one you sent to mine.

That was helpful. You have some interesting insights into EDs and are very articulate and clear thinking.

And you have answered my question about why other people complain at me or seem to take my approach to diet and exercise as some failure on their part.

I don't think they have a mental health issue - they are just downloading their insecurities at me. I'll try and be patient.

But I have had my own journey with misplacing my confidence into my appearance and have learned to have a more rounded view of myself and life. I didn't go far with it but I wasn't in healthy territory (in my view) either. I think listening to people being so negative about themselves can throw my own more balanced view some days.

I need to learn how to deal with this better because I can end up questioning myself and wondering if I should get all bent out of shape about the size of my ass, etc. My real view point is not to think so hard about the size of my ass(or any other body part) -it's not that important - to me an ass is just an ass! Big, small, flabby, tight...so what?

 

[San2]

BMI Over 30 is obese and unhealthy and the person is harming themselves.
BMI Less then 17.5 and a person fits the criterea for Anorexia, BMI less then 15 and a person is severaly anorexic, BMI less then 13.5 and a person is applicable for a mental health section if they refuse treatment and a BMI less then 10 (*I think*-not sure on the exact number there) and a person is at a life threatening weight- if they get that far, many die beforehand.
People are doing harm to themselves at these weights. With the exception of being lower then a BMI 13.5, its within the persons choice to take action and get help if they chose.

I agree with a lot of what you wrote, but this bit worries me. BMI is an extremely unreliable number, and works for less than 25% of people out there. It doesn't take any factors into account other than height and weight, which is a recipe for disaster.

I had a very complex test done recently which took into account bone density, bone structure, organ size and density and a lot of other things, and it turned out that if I got down to my 'recommended' BMI of 22.something, I would be officially underweight, and would be in danger of doing serious harm to my body.

My 'ideal' body weight was determined and it turned out to be just over a BMI of 30, which would still put me into the range of being obese. I even got a projection of what I would look like at that weight, and it was rather surprising.

So I don't think that going by BMI is necessarily a good thing at all. It's a rough, very rough guideline, but nothing more.