A rant about basic concepts I

[vjyoung]

In my experience it's a very mixed field in terms of calorie counters and non-calorie counters. Here on this forum, most count calories. But in terms of the people I've trained, I'd say the majority don't.

They prefer to stick with reasonable habits that indirectly control intake.

Some do well with that. Others need more rigidity.

I find that records help me identify “reasonable habits” which I have practiced for years without counting calories. So, if a person knows what is reasonable no record keeping is necessary. By promising myself that I will go back to record keeping if I get over a particular weight gives me added incentive to do proper weight maintenance. My point is not so much of actually counting calories but building a good support system.

 

[KaraCooks]

Here on this forum, most count calories. But in terms of the people I've trained, I'd say the majority don't.

This is sort of a WAG based on my experience,but I wonder if the difference is that people working with a trainer get more input on healthy foods and portions, whereas strict calorie counters tend to be people who have had to figure it out on their own?

I mean until I started actually logging my food and counting calories, I only had a very vague idea of how much food I was eating. I really did eat *mostly* healthy food, but I ate a lot more than I should. Portion control and balancing my intake didn't become a concrete concept until I saw it in black and white.

Whereas a lot of people who are working with a trainer on their food are getting more concrete input on quantities and types of foods.

I dunno ... just rambling there. I tend to be much less strict about my calories now that I have a better handle on what a proper portion size is and what foods I can eat in quantity and so forth.

 

[Steve]

This is sort of a WAG based on my experience,but I wonder if the difference is that people working with a trainer get more input on healthy foods and portions, whereas strict calorie counters tend to be people who have had to figure it out on their own?

I certainly think that plays a role. Of course it depends on the trainer too.

Most clients literally drag themselves into the gym. No matter how upbeat, intelligent, and refreshing you are as a trainer... most clients don't want to workout. It's the sad truth. I've gone as far as saying, "If you don't want to be here, just quit. While I'd love the chance to help you... there are many others who can and will use my help. Don't take up their opportunity and take it for granted."

On this vein... asking these people to start weighing and tracking food is quite difficult. I'll typically ask them to do a dietary record for a week or so just to get a handle on what's going on. But after that... in my experience... they stop being consistent and complete.

So the approach I've found to work best is simple.

I'll design them sample meal plans and offer them loads of "swap options" which are simply foods they can interchange as desire, tastes, etc dictate.

On top of this, I actually use many of the ideas that are expressed in books like Mindless Eating and Volumetrics. I was using them before those books hit the shelves. I mean, it's really just common sense stuff but when you lay it out there as a set of rules while promoting flexibility - not rigidity - things tend to "stick" better.

Of course there are cases where it doesn't work and that's when I lay it out there as - either you hold yourself more accountable or you start weighing and tracking every morsel of food that passes your lips or you don't reach your goals. That simple.

Interestingly, my online clients are almost 100% different. Most of my online clients seem to have more will and desire to not only improve, but learn too. I'm not sure why. But it almost invariably works out like that. Maybe it's the simple fact that they took it upon themselves to try and educate themselves by joining support communities, reading articles, etc which is how they typically find me.

I don't know.

The bottom line is, though, that whatever method gets someone eating healthily and calorically in-line with their goals while maintaining as much comfort as possible is what needs to be applied and this will vary from person to person.

I mean until I started actually logging my food and counting calories, I only had a very vague idea of how much food I was eating.

And that's why I, at the very least, make them start with some sort of dietary record. I'm trying to establish an awareness that many people lack. Even in my initial questionnaire sent to clients I ask things like, "how many calories do you think your body needs to maintain it's current size?" "how many calories do you think you eat on an average day" and "how many calories are in one pound of fat."

I want to see what they know and how skewed their perceptions are.

I think counting calories, at least for a little while, is an important part of the education process. That said, I have run into people who simply ate like crap before and by giving them some very basic guidelines while maintaining a bit of flexibility... they automatically control intake and realize success without counting.

We're all coming from different place. Why you were fat is not why I was fat and why I was fat is not why she was fat.

I really did eat *mostly* healthy food, but I ate a lot more than I should. Portion control and balancing my intake didn't become a concrete concept until I saw it in black and white.

Makes a lot of sense given your history.

I dunno ... just rambling there. I tend to be much less strict about my calories now that I have a better handle on what a proper portion size is and what foods I can eat in quantity and so forth.

Yea, personally I haven't counted calories in years.

I know how much protein I need to get and that's the only variable I vaguely keep track - even with that though I'm eyeballing.

I can track my leanness and weight and based on what those things are doing I can adjust the volume of food I eat accordingly. That's what works for me and is comfortable with me.

 

[KaraCooks]

Interestingly, my online clients are almost 100% different. Most of my online clients seem to have more will and desire to not only improve, but learn too. I'm not sure why. But it almost invariably works out like that. Maybe it's the simple fact that they took it upon themselves to try and educate themselves by joining support communities, reading articles, etc which is how they typically find me.

I think that's a really good point, too.

And yeah, we're all different and all need different methods. I've said before that if you give me a list to eat from, my knee jerk automatic reaction is to want something that's not on the list. And if you tell me I can't eat something, then I immediately want that one thing more than life itself.

So for me calorie counting is sensible because I'm not working from what *I* perceive as restrictions.

OTOH, some people become overwhelmed with the idea that they can eat ANYTHING as long as they figure out how it fits in, and working from a smaller list (at least to begin with) really helps them. It's certainly why diets like Atkins and SouthBeach and even Weight Watchers so forth are so popular - you know what you can and can't eat and there's no figuring or craziness.

 

[Omega]

I pretty much only eat healthy food. My lapses are tiny and nothing compared to the average person - even the average weight loser...

I often dont track though. I do weigh myself every day under identical circumstances. If I find that I am testing the top of my 3 pound zone I immediately take action. I think that seeing myself over 2.0 pounds up from goal scares me. I immediately track every morsel. Weigh meat and anything really other than veg (I weigh some of that too) - otherwise estimate with things like sticks of celery, medium carrots. I check it through on fitday and look for the culprit. I also increase my water by half a litre incase sodium or indeed toilet activity is behind it...

I am pretty obsessive about doing my 6.5 mile walk every day which I view as being central to the belief that I am still on track.

I think that there are parts which are a definite ritual involved...

 

[Steve]

I think that's a really good point, too.

And yeah, we're all different and all need different methods. I've said before that if you give me a list to eat from, my knee jerk automatic reaction is to want something that's not on the list. And if you tell me I can't eat something, then I immediately want that one thing more than life itself.

Yea, I never do that. Because you're not alone in that. That's basic human nature.

The way I get around this is one of two ways and which way I use depends on the person:

1. The sample meal plan literally lists almost every food as an alternative fill-in or substitute plus it leaves room for "pleasure foods."

2. I give them the most basic of my "plans" which entails:

*Understanding protein's role and importance as well as how much they need. Then educate them on the fact that most any meat has about 7 or so grams of protein per ounce. From there it's a matter of linking them up mentally with visual cues like a deck of cards, palm of your hand, etc.

*I make strict rules in terms of quantity of fibrous veggies and essential fats.

*From there it's a free for all, essentially. But they can only eat free foods after the foundation is in place. For some, this very loose approach works well. For others, it fails miserably.

It's all about seeing what sticks.

So for me calorie counting is sensible because I'm not working from what *I* perceive as restrictions.

Operative words right there, which I know you understand.

Training for me is simply a matter of identifying perceptions and either molding them to meet a certain objective or fitting my objective to the existing perceptions.

How one perceives a plan of attack will ultimately dictate whether something works or not.

That's why training is 1/2 science, 1/2 art.

 

[KaraCooks]

Hahha. And as a VERY timely post ... did you see Tom Venuto's new blog post today:

Has the whole world gone crazy about food? Before you answer, consider this: Some people think that as long as you eat “clean”, you’ll lose weight and calories don’t matter. Some think that processed foods must be totally forbidden or you’ll never lose weight. Some think carbs make you fat. Some think you’re a bad person if you eat animals (and you’ll die of cancer too). Some people think that if you eat non-organic fruits and vegetables, you’ll grow three heads (and die of cancer too). Phew.

And Leigh's response (which seems right in line with exactly what you're saying:

I don’t think everyone should or needs to count calories. In fact, ideally I wish no one ever had to count calories. The problem is that people get stuck and they can’t achieve their goals. When this happens I turn to a more fool-proof way to achieve the goals.

Here is how it breaks down for me.

Fat loss=the deficit. The deficit has to be achieved. I don’t care how it is achieved. Substitute a shake for a meal, use portion control, weigh your food, etc. I don’t care how it is achieved or the method you use (as long as it’s smart/informed).

However, if you are stuck, why mess around? For what, pride? Laziness? Scared of developing an issue? You want to know what develops a complex? Being stuck at the same weight for 10 years because you don’t know what is going on and some guru told you calories don’t count. That is what develops a complex.

 

[TheFitRebel]

Damage control

over my years of experience I have come to the understanding that you can only do so much with cutting back calories.

To me keeping the diet in check is more about damage control and "helping" weight loss but at the end of the day the fat on the body must be burned off and a diet doesn't burn fat it can just keep it from building.

Sure I know lots of people who drop weight when they initialy change their eating but it seems to kind of go through a "honey moon" phase and then it's up to activity to actualy burn off the rest.

So I see it as this:

1) alter or adjust to keep a healthy diet for the foundation for weight loss

2) use activity to burn as many calories as possible to actively consume the rest of the fat on the body.

make Sense?

 

[Steve]

Kara, that was quite timely. Thanks.

over my years of experience I have come to the understanding that you can only do so much with cutting back calories.

What do you mean? Are you suggesting cutting calories enough to trigger a deficit is hard or impossible? I could be way off on what you're point is but I'm looking for clarification.

To me keeping the diet in check is more about damage control and "helping" weight loss but at the end of the day the fat on the body must be burned off and a diet doesn't burn fat it can just keep it from building.

Sorry, but that bolded part really confuses me. What are you trying to say?

Sure I know lots of people who drop weight when they initialy change their eating but it seems to kind of go through a "honey moon" phase and then it's up to activity to actualy burn off the rest.

A deficit is a deficit no matter how you slice it. You don't need to "burn" fat off with exercise. A deficit will always oxidize various tissues to "make up" for the energy shortage... regardless of whether said shortage is coming from increased exercise, decreased food intake, or a combination of the both.

 

[sharoo]

So what's your take on needing fewer calories as one ages? Having gone through menopause, I am finding it very difficult to drop even a pound. Never had that problem before. I am working and working at it, each and every day, counting calories truthfully, and cardio 4 times a week and with my trainer twice a week. What's your take on that?

My experience has been similar to yours. I found that about age 50 my metabolic rate started declining noticeably and plateaued at about 300-500 calories per day less than it was in my 30's. Personally I don't believe this is due to reduced muscle mass, as I can lift more weight now than I could 30 years ago. But I suppose it doesn't really matter what the reason is - it's just a sad fact that I have to deal with. I currently weigh about 220 and my maintenance calorie level (with no exercise) is now about 1800. I just have to laugh when I see rules of thumb for calculating maintenance level at 10-15 calories per pound. I wish.

Here's what I've found. YMMV.

1) Exercise used to be something that helped me lose weight faster - now it is absolutely essential to losing weight. I pretty much don't lose weight unless I exercise at least 5 days a week. That may simply be because I don't have the discipline to eat <1300 calories/day, which really is where I would need to be to lose 1 pound/week without exercise.

2) I do much better with lower carb diets now that I'm older. Used to be I would get intolerably hungry when I restricted carbs to less than two servings/meal. Now I'm comfortable with 1 serving/meal. [I looked at your menu and you're already super low carb, so this one doesn't apply to you].

3) I am much more prone to retaining water now than I used to be. This can mask weight loss for weeks at a time. Sometimes I will go for 3 or 4 WEEKS with no change in weight, then suddenly lose 3-4 pounds in a few days. This brings me down to a new plateau and the cycle starts again. You may just have to be patient. Pay attention to changes in your body. Are your clothes fitting looser? I always see a drop in size BEFORE I see it on the scale.

4) I haven't experienced this one myself, but some of my friends have. For some reason, a diet that is exactly the same from day to day seems to stall weight loss, even when it is well-balanced and low-calorie. I have no idea how that can happen. I believe in physics, and this seems to fly in the face of the calories-in < calories-out calculation. But you might try greater diversity in what you eat from day to day and see if that gives you a kickstart. Can't hurt.

Good luck!

 

[KaraCooks]

I just have to laugh when I see rules of thumb for calculating maintenance level at 10-15 calories per pound. I wish.

Everyone is different ... a "rule of thumb" is just that. A guideline. An estimate. There are some people in their 50s for whom the 14 calories per pound to maintain works really well. There are some people in their 20s for whom 14 calories per pound is too much.

We're all different and we all change differently as we age as well.

I know that as I get older I am much more sensitive to sodium and water retention than I used to be - I am not entirely sure if that's age or having reduced my sodium intake over the last 2 years, or a combination of both, but I know for me it's true.

I also lose better if I eat my carbs during the day and not at night. Who knows why - but it holds true for me.

It's all about taking a SWAG and making it work for you.

 

[sharoo]

I also lose better if I eat my carbs during the day and not at night. Who knows why - but it holds true for me.

Interesting tip. I have a tendency to eat more carbs in the evening, but that may just be habit. I've been trying to figure out how to get more protein into my diet, and switching out a carb for a protein at dinner might be a good idea. It's also easy to do if we remember to keep cottage cheese in the house: I like having a scoop of cottage cheese with hot, spicy foods instead of rice or bread.

One reason it MIGHT make a difference when you eat carbs is nighttime blood sugar levels. My husband has recently been diagnosed diabetic, so we are both becoming much more aware of carbs and how they affect body chemistry. Diabetics are generally advised to eat a high-protein snack before bedtime to help stabilize blood sugar during the nighttime fast.

I'm not sure how blood sugar fluctuations relate to weight gain and loss, but I can see how there might be a relationship of some kind. I don't really have a hypothesis here, just tossing the idea around.

 

[-Rosie-]

What an interesting thread. I think I'm going to read it more throughly when I get home from work. Thanks for writing this.

 

[aliciamatth]

Awesome post!

 

[vjyoung]

I usually go to bed between 11 and 12. I have found that I feel best if I have finished my evening meal by 7 pm and not snake on much after that. If I get hungry before going to bed it means I was shorted on protein which is practically never.

 

[fatboy]

Great information! Thanks!

 

[harshathlete]

I also lose better if I eat my carbs during the day and not at night. Who knows why - but it holds true for me.

It's all about taking a SWAG and making it work for you.

I couldn't agree more...... I love the first two posts by Steve and they hit home a few truths that I failed to understand when I failed on my initial weight loss attempts....

Anyway, I have been having great success with having salads (with protein ) for dinner, 3 nights in a row and then adding carbs or eating a "nice" dinner on the 4th day while keeping the rest of the meal portions ( breakfast, snack and lunch ) the same for all 4 days.
Some call it carb-cycling, some call it calorie zig-zagging, I call it "success"


Harsh

 

[dietperson]

As i like to say... the only thing in dieting is always eat the right thing at the right time

 

[Steve]

Care to expand on that a bit? I think it's peculiar you didn't mention anything about quantity of food given the fact that even the right quality and timing of food will cause fat gain if eaten in the wrong quantity.

 

[safeweightloss]

My First Post!

Hello every one This is my first post here so don't hammer me down. Hope to give and get a lot from this great forum.