please help with my supplement setup

Fil · May 3, 2006

Oops, delayed post!

evolution · May 3, 2006

Bry, you might get mad at me for what I'm about to say and that's okay...but I'm not attacking you at all. I just sometimes like to weigh in on arguments from time to time when it comes to training/nutrition/supplements. I've only been selling supplements and sports nutrition for about 3 years now and I'm not taking sides on this at all. Regardless of liking Abear or not liking Abear (which I do) I'd call B.S. on him if I thought he was wrong. I'll repeat myself prob a few times but I agree with all posters on here-I don't think Kre-alk is worth buying over regular monohydrate but I also agree that whatever the customer buys is what I keep in stock because it keeps the shop/store in business. Do I think someone is an idiot for buying glutamine, Kre-Alk, etc...nah, not really...to each his/her own. My opinion is that there money is better spent elsewhere but that's anther discussion I suppose.

But from an objective point of view-what you've continuously done is bash Abear and remind everyone that you've had X number of years in the supplement business and that research studies don't count while Abear has produced studies. We're not robots on here--if we smell B.S. we call B.S. It doesn't matter who you are...we're open enough on here to disagree with each other when we're wrong, question each other when we think something might be wrong, and agree when statements are right. Don't take this as hating on you at all, just how I see it.

I do agree with you completely that the customer keeps us in business and as such-I'll keep in stock what the customers want to spend their money on.

This discussion so far=
"Here are some studies from researchers to back up what I'm saying."

"Yeah, well...my customers tell me it works so your studies mean nothing=science has no backing." Isn't that what you're arguing? That this product is great because it has a patent due to research and yet you turn around and discount and attack Abear when he cites studies.

I want to say that first I could care less if Johnny spends X number of dollars on X product. If he thinks it's working for him...good for him and good for the shop. I sell stuff to people too-creatine, creatines with esters and malates and bells and whistles attached to it, protein, glutamine, Omega fatty acids of all sorts, herbs, probiotics, sexual problem stuff, kidney problem stuff, green foods, etc etc etc. We do about $30-60,000K a day worth of business depending on day, who a guest lecturer might be, events happening, etc So, I get A LOT of feedback on stuff.

Ya' know what, I hear people tell me all the time how jacked they get and how strong they get using tribulus

I also hear some of my customers tell me how energized they get from taking creatine monohydrate. I've also been told by numerous customers when we sold pro-hormones that using 6-Oxo would prevent gyno and that's why they took it and since they didn't get gyno, it must work.

'Cept 6-Oxo doesn't prevent gyno and pro-hormones won't give you gyno anyway. Anyway, do I disuade customers from buying what they want? Nope. Sure, you have to cater to your customers because they make you money and that's the bottom line, but this doesn't mean they are right or that a certain supplement is t3h awesome. Of course, a guy told me took creatine and went into a rage and therefore people should avoid creatine because it makes people angry and he heard an athlete died while taking it so therefore it can kill you.

No2 is way overpriced and overhyped. L-Arginine will do the trick. But I guess this only really matters when you want those purty biceps looking pumped for an extra 20 minutes.

Do I tell them that they should be buying food instead of No-Xplode of they want to gain size? Nope, not unless they ask my opinion...but most don't because they depend on Muscle&Fiction for their information.

Glutamine is a great supplement if you have an ulcer or digestional problems. Considering the gut absorbs most of the glutamine taken in, the muscles get little...if any. I might go with glutamine and I was an endurance athlete wanting to keep immune function up but propolis would do just fine for that.

But on pubmed, here are some glutamine studies (yes, pubmed has plenty of supplement and exercise studies)

If I remember right, glutamine is preferentially metabolized by the cells of your GI tract, namely, the foregut and very little if at all even gets through first-pass metabolism assuming they even make it pass your small intestine, let alone the liver. I think somewhere in the HST FAQ (HST forum) there is a good diagram and semi-detailed explanation with references on this.

Any GH spike the glutamine might induce really is... insignificant anyway.

I believe a key study demonstrating glutamine's anabolic effectiveness was performed on burn victims and administered intravenously. Firstly, if one is burnt to any degree of severity, administration of any substance remotely resembling an element of nutrition will prove "anabolic". Secondly, intravenous administration leaps frog over the issue of first-pass metabolism... but I digress.

Most of the anabolic glutamine work was in vitro. Put it into a cell and it increases protein synthesis. Two huge problems.

1. Most oral glutamine won't get there
2. There is a HUGE concentration gradient problem with the direction of flow being from inside the muscle cell out. I saw an infusion paper once showing that even infused glutamine couldn't raise intracellular concentrations of glutamine in muscle. No way is oral glutamine going to do it.

About the only way that oral glutamine might impact on muscular glutamine stores would be super indirectly. More or less we have a system of

gut <-> liver <-> blood stream <- skeletal muscle

in terms of how glutamine can flow (and the gut to bloodstream path is limited).

But consider a situation where the gut is using a lot of glutamine for some reason.

IF (and this is a big if) you weren't getting enough in the diet, you might end up seeing a drop in skeletal muscle glutamine stores because it's being pulled out to fuel other tissues.

Hoss · May 3, 2006

bryguy said:
you can not devalue the thousands of happy customers who have tried these products and loved them simply on your hearsay.

This is basically what you're trying to say, that customer testimonials are what matters. Never mind my opinion on kre-... or glut. or anything else, that means squat. Remember when people thought those shaker things worked to lose fat? EVERYONE knew they worked, now thanks to science we know they don't. The majority of people think that if they do 300+ sit ups, they'll get abs. Or if you do 25+ reps you'll 'tone'. Some might, but it won't be from that. And this we know isn't true either. People still think to get huge you've got to lift extremely heavy, NOT true.

So all of these things have proven to be wrong by science, and experiments. Even though, thousands of people will still tell you they work, and they swear by them. I'm not saying you need to completely discredit customer testimonials, but you do need to consider that these controlled experiments might have more information to offer. Taking both into consideration would be the best bet, for you and your customers.

And it does seem like you're coming off attacking abear rather than having a discussion.

tgunz · May 3, 2006

Haha, i didn't mean to start a fight over a little thread, anyways instead of fighting how about just supplying me with usefull information, i would appreciate it.. anyways were all grown ups here i think we can handle it.

Hoss · May 3, 2006

niceone said:
NO2 and Anator are not necessary.
for your post workout nutrition use some maltodextrin or dextrose mixed with some protein (and creaine if you are on it)
the only things in anator that you really want in your PW shake are Maltodextrin, dextrose, and whey concentrate anyhow.. So why not buy it yourself and save yourself the dough.

Do yourself a favour and put that money towards good quality food, and not over-hyped, over-priced junk.

Your question was answered in the first post.

abear · May 3, 2006

tgunz said:
Haha, i didn't mean to start a fight over a little thread, anyways instead of fighting how about just supplying me with usefull information, i would appreciate it.. anyways were all grown ups here i think we can handle it.

I have to admit, this is the first post in this thread that got me upset.

Are you kidding? Your questions have been answered more than once. In addition, I've been posting links and names for those who want to read more into what I've been saying. You haven't been reading the "usefull" information???

This isn't fighting, it's providing information. Some of us can back up what we say, some can't. No more to it than that.

tgunz · May 5, 2006

calm down abear, that wasn't a disrespectfull post, i appreciate everyone who has taken time out to answer my questions, but their is more argueing in this thread than factual information, what i should have said was 'more' usefull information, i apologize for that.. but dont label my post as disrespectfull in anyway

Hoss · May 5, 2006

tgunz said:
calm down abear, that wasn't a disrespectfull post, i appreciate everyone who has taken time out to answer my questions, but their is more argueing in this thread than factual information, what i should have said was 'more' usefull information, i apologize for that.. but dont label my post as disrespectfull in anyway

Your question was answered. If you have another Q, make another thread.

abear · May 5, 2006

tgunz said:
calm down abear, that wasn't a disrespectfull post, i appreciate everyone who has taken time out to answer my questions, but their is more argueing in this thread than factual information, what i should have said was 'more' usefull information, i apologize for that.. but dont label my post as disrespectfull in anyway

thesuperman21 · Sep 6, 2007

Fil said:
Whoah, back it up there, that's kinda harsh. I've always been a big supporter of Kre-Alkalyn, as you know, and there is research out there. Peer reviewed, no, but there's no supplementation that's had an actual extensive clinical trial. There's not enough money in it with the establishment drug companies have set up (paying up to $15,000 per test-subject prices out supplement companies from hiring clinics). Zyflamend is the first supplement to have a complete clinical study done for it - and I don't need to remind people again that NO supplement is FDA approved, so all you're ever going to get is what supplement manufacturers (and mfg sponsored studies) make available to you.

Patents aren't granted on zero research. There are plenty of manufacturers selling lots of creatine buffered with sugars, different kinds of delivery systems, effervescence (what a mistake THAT is), and so forth - but they don't have knowledge or research to back it up, so they can't patent their formula.

Of course you can. First off, they received a patent because they were able to show how it does it. You can review the patent here ()

The reason creatine turns into creatinine is because of low pH. Kre-Alkalyn increases the molecular pH of the creatine. It's as simple as that - and it's a sound "concept" that requires no peer review, it's a given. We know how creatine breaks down in the body and the speed at which it does it.

Finally, they don't claim it works better than creatine monohydrate. It's still creatine monohydrate in the pills -- it's just better absorbed because it doesn't turn into creatinine - and the mechanism by which is does this is well understood.

The key advantages of Kre-Alkalyn:
- No dehydration
- No bloating
- No GI tract irritation
- No kidney stress
And this is all a result of better absorption. The research (and again, yes, it's out there) claims that 1.5g of Kre-alkalyn is as effective as 5g of regular creatine -- because it's not destroyed on the way.

If you read the patent, it references all of Jeff Golini's research, but I'll repost some of it here:

1) NIR Analysis of Stomach:

*1.5 grams of creatine monohydrate mixed with water and added to
stomacher at pH 3, raised stomach pH level to 3.5, with remainder of
creatine being converted to creatinine.

*1.5 grams of effervescent creatine mixed with water and added to
stomacher at pH 3, raised stomach pH level to 3.9, with remainder
of creatine being converted to creatinine.

*1.5 grams of creatine fruit flavored powder mixed with water and added
to stomacher at pH 3, raised stomach pH level to pH 3.4, with
remainder of creatine being converted to creatinine.

*1.5 grams of Kre-Alkalyn® mixed with water and added to stomacher
at pH 3, buffered stomach pH level to 9, keeping buffered creatine stable
with ample time for absorption, with no conversion to creatinine.

2) Arterial Blood Gas:

*A low HCO3 level detected on a SMA (Sequential Multiple Analyzer)
was the first clue to metabolic acidosis.

*A further and more accurate test can then be performed with an ABG
(Arterial Blood-Gas Analyzer), which measures based on the Henderson-
Hasselbalch equation.

The Henderson-Hasselbalch Equation mathematically describes
the relationship between blood pH and components of the H2CO3
buffering system: pH = 6.1 + log (HCO3/H2CO3)

We use the following equation to calculate H2CO3:

H2CO3 = PCO2 x 0.03

3) Serum Chemistry:

*This type of test was used to detect elevated creatinine levels in uremic
acidosis, resulting from increase ingestion of creatinine and kidney
failure to excrete this waste product.

4) Complete Blood Count:

*Checking WBC (White Blood Cells) and finding elevations in the total
count, also shows a serious consideration septicemia, which causes
lactic acidosis.

5) Urinalysis:

*A low pH was a quick detection method for acidemia.

Research References
(Note: NOT supplement manufacturer research)

1) Wendy Lou Jones, MS, BA, "More Bio-Fuel", 2001

2) Integrated Bimolecular Corporation, Tucson, AZ

3) Karen L Stavile, MD, Associate Director at State University of New
York Health Science Center at Brooklyn, “Metabolic Acidosis”,
Research 2001.

4) Stephen W Borron, MD, MS, Associate Clinical Professor, George
Washington University Hospital, “Lactic Acidosis”, Research, 2001

5) BioCeuticals Research & Development Laboratory, 2001. Creatine-vs-
Kre-Alkalyn® upon ingestion, Jeff Golini, Executive Scientist
& Charles Burchell, Associate Director of Chemistry.

6) Adrogue HJ, Madias NE: Changes in plasma potassium
concentration during acute acid-base disturbances. Am
J Med 1981; 71(3): 456-67.

7) Adrogue HJ, Madias NE: Management of life-threatening acid-base
disorders. New England Journal of Medicine 1998; 338:26-34: 107-11.

8) Emmett M, Narins RG: Clinical use of the anion gap. Medicine
(Baltimore) 1977 January; 56(1): 38-54.

9) Fulop M: Serum potassium in lactic acidosis and keto acidosis.
New England Journal of Medicine 1979; 300(19): 1087-1089.

10) Richardson RM, Halperin ML: The urine pH: Am J Kidney Dis 1987;
10(2):140-3.

11) Muller-Plathe O: A nomogram for the interpretation of acid-base data.
J Clin Chem 1987; 25(11): 795-798.

12) Fulop M: A guide for predicting arterial CO2 tension in metabolic
acidosis. Am J Nephrol 1997; 17(5): 421-424.

13) Kwong SC, Brubacher J: Phenformin and lactic acidosis: a case
report and review. J Emerg Med 1998 Nov-Dec; 16(6): 881-886.

14) Mitchell JH, Wildenthal K, Johnson Jr RL: The effects of acid-base
disturbances on cardiovascular and pulmonary function. Kidney Int
1972;1(5): 375-389.

15) BioCeuticals Research & Development Laboratory, 2000. Various
Creatine vs. Kre-Alkalyn® studies upon ingestion.

16) Kellum JA: Metabolic acidosis in the critically ill: lessons from
physical chemistry. Kidney Int. Supp, 1998; 66: S81-86.

17) Mitchell JH, Wildenthal K, & Johnson Jr RL: The effects of acid-base
disturbances on cardiovascular and pulmonary function. Kidney Int.
1981:20: 799-809.

18) Grey’s Anatomy & Physiology, 1979

I just purchased Kre-Alkalyn recently and it seems like it is working. I get a boost of energy for the entire work out. I have some questions as well. Since I am only working out about every other day, do I need to take the pills every day or what should my breakdown be? Should I take 2 in the morning and maybe 1 before the workout or what? Should I continue to take the creatine on my off days? If so, how much? I am 5'9" and 150lbs.
Thanks,
Steve

thesuperman21 · Sep 6, 2007

abear said:
I hope everyone has seen what I've been doing. People like this guy are a dime a dozen. They cannot back up anything they say and they cannot provide any real proof about what they sell. They ignore research and prey on those who just don't know better. Personally, I've fallen for it before. I've wasted my money on weight gainers shakes, Muscletech products, etc. If I can assist others in making good choices then myself and the other regulars are doing their job.

What I've posted has all been said before:

Supplements and Vitamins World Fitness.com - workout - exercise - fitness - forum - articles
Supplements and Vitamins World Fitness.com - workout - exercise - fitness - forum - articles
Supplements and Vitamins World Fitness.com - workout - exercise - fitness - forum - articles

He again discredits himself this time with a knock on the title under my user name (like I had anything to do with that) instead of giving any evidence. Read the links I've posted, look up the people I mentioned. Read, learn, EDUCATE yourself. After being scammed before, there's only a few people that I trust and I won't steer anyone wrong. You can look up my user name on the Men's Health board and see my reputation over there. I've been helping keep the creatine FAQ going

Creatine.. FAQ - Topic Powered by eve community

Make wise choices before you purchase something

Abear, shut up while you're behind. All you do is try to belittle people to help you try to prove your non-existant point. By the way, bryguy's proof is the people who are continuing to buy the product after receiving results. People like you are the "dime a dozen" as you so put it. I am also a happy customer using Kre-Alkalyn as well as many other people I know who are using this product and other people I know who are switching to this product just after starting to use it.

thesuperman21 · Sep 6, 2007

abear said:
I hope everyone has seen what I've been doing. People like this guy are a dime a dozen. They cannot back up anything they say and they cannot provide any real proof about what they sell. They ignore research and prey on those who just don't know better. Personally, I've fallen for it before. I've wasted my money on weight gainers shakes, Muscletech products, etc. If I can assist others in making good choices then myself and the other regulars are doing their job.

What I've posted has all been said before:

Supplements and Vitamins World Fitness.com - workout - exercise - fitness - forum - articles
Supplements and Vitamins World Fitness.com - workout - exercise - fitness - forum - articles
Supplements and Vitamins World Fitness.com - workout - exercise - fitness - forum - articles

He again discredits himself this time with a knock on the title under my user name (like I had anything to do with that) instead of giving any evidence. Read the links I've posted, look up the people I mentioned. Read, learn, EDUCATE yourself. After being scammed before, there's only a few people that I trust and I won't steer anyone wrong. You can look up my user name on the Men's Health board and see my reputation over there. I've been helping keep the creatine FAQ going

Creatine.. FAQ - Topic Powered by eve community

Make wise choices before you purchase something

Abear, shut up while you're behind. All you do is try to belittle people to help you try to prove your non-existant point. By the way, bryguy's proof is the people who are continuing to buy the product after receiving results. People like you are the "dime a dozen" as you so put it. I am also a happy customer using Kre-Alkalyn as well as many other people I know who are using this product and other people I know who are switching to this product just after starting to use it.

abear · Sep 15, 2007

thesuperman21 said:
Abear, shut up while you're behind. All you do is try to belittle people to help you try to prove your non-existant point. By the way, bryguy's proof is the people who are continuing to buy the product after receiving results. People like you are the "dime a dozen" as you so put it. I am also a happy customer using Kre-Alkalyn as well as many other people I know who are using this product and other people I know who are switching to this product just after starting to use it.

Kre-alkalyn supplementation has no beneficial effect on creatine-to-creatinine conversion rates.

Tallon MJ1 and Child R2

1University of Northumbria, Sport Sciences, Northumbria University, Northumberland Building, Newcastle upon Tyne, United Kingdom, 2Department of Life Sciences, Kingston University, Penrhyn Rd, Kingston-upon-Thames, United Kingdom. DrTallon@CR-Technologies.net

All American Pharmaceutical and Natural Foods Corp. (Billings, MT, USA) claim that Kre-alkalyn? (KA) a ?Buffered? creatine, is 100% stable in stomach acid and does not convert to creatinine. In contrast, they also claim that creatine monohydrate (CM) is highly pH labile with more than 90% of the creatine converting to the degradation product creatinine in stomach acids. To date, no independent or university laboratory has evaluated the stability of KA in stomach acids, assessed its possible conversion to creatinine, or made direct comparisons of acid stability with CM.

This study examined whether KA supplementation reduced the rate of creatine conversion to creatinine, relative to commercially available CM (Creapure?). Creatine products were analyzed by an independent commercial laboratory using testing guidelines recommended by the United States Pharmacopeia (USP). Each product was incubated in 900ml of pH 1 HCL at 37? 1oC and samples where drawn at 5, 30 and 120 minutes and immediately analyzed by HPLC (UV) for creatine and creatinine.

In contrast to the claims of All American Pharmaceutical and Natural Foods Corp., the rate of creatinine formation from CM was found to be less than 1% of the initial dose, demonstrating that CM is extremely stable under acidic conditions that replicate those of the stomach. This study also showed that KA supplementation actually resulted in 35% greater conversion of creatine to creatinine than CM. In conclusion the conversion of creatine to creatinine is not a limitation in the delivery of creatine from CM and KA is less stable than CM in the acid conditions of the stomach.

Have a good day! :yelrotflmao: