please help with my supplement setup

bryguy, whats funny is that you come on this board and think you know more than the rest of us.

apparently you've never heard of the ppl i mentioned. you know that guy will brink? heres what he's said about it

When ever I see a complete fabrication (read lie) about anything early in a company's marketing materials, I lose all interest. They state " It was found that almost immediately after adding water to creatine monohydrate that the majority of it rapidly converted to the toxic by-product creatinine." Complete BS and where i stopped reading.

and another one based on the same numbers you posted

The above conversion rates are total fiction to sell their product. Plenty of data on conversion of creatine to creatinine, and it's quite slow. From one report I have on pdf:

"Creatine in aqueous solution is reasonably stable for up to 8h at 25°C, pH 7.5 or 6.5. Breakdownafter 3 days at pH 5.5, 4.5 and 3.5 was 4%, 12% and 21% respectively.

If Creatine is not used immediately after it is dissolved in water it should be stored at a low temperature to slow down the degradation. The solubility of Creatine Monohydrate is 14 g per liter at 25°C (1.4%) and 8.5 g at 4°C."

next, you have no clue about pubmed. you can find tons of research on creatine and just about every other supplement out there. thats how the leaders in this industry filter out the garbage from what works. all those guys i mentioned earlier are always citing research from there. you downplay it because you cant compete with them

everyone take note that the only ppl pushing this junk in this thread are the ones who sell it. they cant provide any real proof so they downplay research and swear by a patent.

also notice how they pass over the fact that know no one in this industry supports this junk. also remember what the ppl on this board have been saying about this product for years. regular monohydrate is still the way to go if you want to use creatine. ;)
 
bryguy said:
Hey, sorry too about the tirade. It's just hard to hear people talking as authorities when they are just repeating what they have heard instead of passing along some real experience.

As far as your supplementation, I believe you are on the right track. Be careful of taking too much stuff though. It isn't all necessary all the time.

First, consider your goals, short term and long term. Do you want to build, cut, or both?

No matter what your goal, it is always best to take it one at a time. So, if you want to build and cut, choose one to do first, and then do the other.

The reason for this is the diet requirements associated with each. Building requires a caloric surpluss by the end of the day while cutting requires a caloric deficit. You will notice much faster results if you focus on one at a time instead of trying to do both at a caloric equilibrium.

So, when you are building, take your multi, protein, Kre-alkalyn, Super pump, Noxx, or whatever else helps get YOU going. These are all good supplements and, while it is not necessary to take them all, they will help your performance/recovery. Adding Glutamine post workout with your protein isn't a bad idea either. OH! And dont forget to Eat Eat Eat (fish is great during this phase because it contains your omega-3's - cutting out the flax seed oil - and the extra fat calories won't hurt either).

When you want to cut, take the multi, protein, flax, and thermogenic. Make sure to be in a caloric deficit of about 500-1000 KCal a day. Switch your training to include more high intensity/low duration cardio, which preserves muscle while burning major calories.

Train for your immediate goal, and always have your next goal in mind so as to position yourself correctly for the transition. Remember, supplements are great at helping you get there, but diet is still 90%. Your body can only build itself from the raw materials you supply, so be good to yourself and your body will reflect it!
Click to expand...
NO products, glutamine??? this stuff was discounted long time ago. you need to catch up.
 
let me clarify. glutamine is good for those with digestive issues and those in a severe catabolic state (ppl with HIV, burn victims). some even say marathon runners and pre-contest bodybuilders would benefit from it too. the truth is that about 80-90% of glutamine taken orally does not make it past the gut so for the rest of us its not on the must-have list
 
Health Strategy Consulting Interviews

Another Opinion
November 18, 2004

The press release that was issued by MRI, announcing the results of its studies on NO2® at Baylor University, is emblematic of the selective reporting of sponsored research that often embodies “science by press release” campaigns orchestrated by dietary supplement companies. Several points merit consideration:

1. The results of the studies were in fact presented in large part at the first annual meeting of the International Society of Sports Nutrition, in Las Vegas this past June, published as conference abstracts in the inaugural issue of Sports Nutrition Review Journal ()

2. The studies FAILED to show NO2 to be superior to placebo in relation to key outcomes that had been aggressively marketed as benefits a user would enjoy from the product: muscle mass gain, weight (total body mass) gain, fat loss, and self-assessed muscle pump, muscle hardness, and sexual function/performance/desire. Additionally, eight other muscular performance assessments (including muscular endurance and peak aerobic capacity) were performed where again NO2 did no better than placebo. No mention of the product’s “failure” in these consumer-relevant areas/marketing “buttons” was made in the release, and likely will also be excluded from any advertisements describing the results of the studies

3. Duplicitously, the “About NO2®” section makes the statement “NO2 induces vasodilation and creates dramatic increases in lean muscle mass...”, two claims that were not borne out by the Baylor studies. Additionally, the NO2 website still states “Creates dramatic increases in muscle size and strength” and “Generates virtual permanent muscle pump” [emphasis added]

4. The study that compared (single dose) extended-released (ER) vs. non-extended-released [sic] compositions indeed did reveal a limited difference from a pharmacokinetic perspective but one could argue with equal authority that the non-extended-released composition may also exert similar, selective enhancements of muscular performance. Because the study that examined the chronic dosing (8 weeks) with NO2 was compared against an inert placebo, the research made no attempt to quantify the efficacy of the rapid release composition relative to the ER. Had the rapid release composition been the comparator (instead of inert placebo) and displayed similar, limited efficacy, this would have likely further undermined the marketshare of NO2, as its US patent application is limited to claims centered upon controlled (extended) release compositions of NO2’s active ingredient

5. The self-aggrandizing statements of setting a “benchmark” and throwing “down the gauntlet” come after NO2 has been in distribution within GNC stores for almost two years, with nothing but testimonials, seminars, advertisements, and promotions to support “efficacy” until this study had been completed

6. The dose employed in the study—12 g of the supplement/day for 8 weeks—is 1.2-1.5 times that recommended on the label (based on body weight). Using the Suggested Retail Price, this would equate to greater than $200/eight weeks, a cost that seems prohibitive given the limited, single study positive results observed

7. The release makes the statement that Ed Byrd introduced creatine in 1993. Ed Byrd was my co-founder partner at EAS, where we co-introduced creatine in 1993 after I introduced to him the September 1992 Clinical Science research article describing the effects of oral creatine monohydrate supplementation. At EAS our credo was to present and publish all of the data that we obtained from the numerous university clinical studies that we sponsored. It is a deceptive disservice to the consumer to omit relevant findings from this first proof of concept study and creates yet another sizable target for both regulatory agencies and impassioned journalists/critics of the dietary supplement industry.

Anthony L. Almada, BSc, MSc

President and CSO
IMAGINutrition, Inc.
 
There you go with your pop-chemistry again abear! Just because you have the time to post over 3,000 of your opinions doesn't make them worth anything! Really, it's just cannon fodder.

Again, there is plenty of research backing up Kre-Alkalyn. Just because YOU don't want to believe the patent doesn't make it true. The allusion that you keep making, that somehow the manufacturers are doctoring all this info is a complete lie. YES, SOME DO IT. KRE-ALKALYN IS NOT ONE OF THEM. If you would take the time to read as much as you talk, you would know more.

Next thing you will do is to tell us all that Vitamin E is carcinogenic because of that review of hand-picked studies?! You are nothing more than a parrot, repeating all the BS you hear without any experience.

I have over 13 years experience in the field, and have received overwhelming customer feedback on glutamine, kre-alkalyn, and NOXX. Unless you want to maintain that they all have gained significant muscle mass due to an imagined placebo effect, your argument holds no weight.

Get off your knees before your trusted guru(s) and actually go get some experience. If you actually tried any of this stuff, you would know that sometimes the research doesn't match the effect. Ever heard of Glucosamine? A rescent publication states that it shouldn't be effective in treating osteoarthritis, but is conclusively is. Just because they don't understand it yet doesn't discount it.

And lastly abear, a patent is proof. You obviosuly don't know what research is if you don't trust a patent. Or would you have me believe that the drug companies spend millions to get a patent because it holds no scientific weight?!

You rely on breaking things down to build yorself up. Your ego and refusal to accept the evidence presented makes this crystal clear. Grow a spine and do something positive instead of ripping everything you don't understand to make yourself feel better.

And for the record, I do not think I know more than everyone on the board. I just happen to know BS when I smell it, and you reek! I have no problem with what anyone says, or has said. It's just that you act as an authority when you have nothing except other people's words. Something I've learned over the last 13 years in the industry is that it is extremely competetive and complicated. Good products will be bashed by those who stand to make money by doing so. You are an unwitting mouthpiece for this kind of behaviour.

Lastly, I have nothing to gain by saying what I have said. I sell EVERY creatine product and all aminos, herbs, vitamins, minerals, etc. Your insinuation to the contrary is insulting, but I wouldn't expect someone of your caliber to have any better means of getting a point accross. The only reason I have posted what I have is because oc overwhelming customer feedback. You may SAY that Kre-ALkalyn and Glutamine are 'discounted', but those are just empty words. Give a person a product that works and they keep buying it. It is in my interest to provide customers with such products, as this keeps them comming back. Had my business model relied on reactionary publications and sensationalized rhetoric to sell products, I would have been out of business a long time ago. My continued success is a testament to the efficacy of these products; no matter what you or your beloved gurus say.
 
Whoah bryguy, take it easy there, we're all here to have a civil discussion. While I do agree with a lot of what you're saying, we don't have to attack abear =D We like him here!
 
Ok, you're right Fil. I guess I have a soft spot for this kind of dogmatic disinformation and I reacted strongly.

My apologies abear.
 
must you continue to embarrass yourself?

bryguy said:
There you go with your pop-chemistry again abear! Just because you have the time to post over 3,000 of your opinions doesn't make them worth anything! Really, it's just cannon fodder.
Click to expand...

One rule of being on a message board is when someone makes note of a persons number of posts is when they know they can't prove their point.

bryguy said:
Again, there is plenty of research backing up Kre-Alkalyn. Just because YOU don't want to believe the patent doesn't make it true. The allusion that you keep making, that somehow the manufacturers are doctoring all this info is a complete lie. YES, SOME DO IT. KRE-ALKALYN IS NOT ONE OF THEM. If you would take the time to read as much as you talk, you would know more.
Click to expand...

Funny how you say how I don't believe it but you make no mention of the person whom I quoted. You also choose to talk about me and not mention any of the other names I mentioned earlier, again some of the leading creatine researchers in the business.

bryguy said:
Next thing you will do is to tell us all that Vitamin E is carcinogenic because of that review of hand-picked studies?! You are nothing more than a parrot, repeating all the BS you hear without any experience.
Click to expand...

Again, talking about me instead of the people I mentioned. Must you continue to show how little you know?

bryguy said:
I have over 13 years experience in the field, and have received overwhelming customer feedback on glutamine, kre-alkalyn, and NOXX. Unless you want to maintain that they all have gained significant muscle mass due to an imagined placebo effect, your argument holds no weight.
Click to expand...

No, they gained size from their meal plan and from their training. Glutamine doesn't do much. How do I know this? Because I learned from Layne Norton who is working on his PHD in Amino Acid Metabolism. He is also a natural competitive bodybuilder. If I remember correctly, he also worked with Dr. Peter Lemon. Any idea who he is? He's referred to as the Godfather of protein research. But I guess who cares since you have 13 years experience, right?

bryguy said:
Get off your knees before your trusted guru(s) and actually go get some experience. If you actually tried any of this stuff, you would know that sometimes the research doesn't match the effect. Ever heard of Glucosamine? A rescent publication states that it shouldn't be effective in treating osteoarthritis, but is conclusively is. Just because they don't understand it yet doesn't discount it.
Click to expand...

HAHAHA!! Dude, stop it. WOW, so apparently you missed this part

But in a subset of patients with moderate-to-severe knee pain, the combination of glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate significantly reduced pain and improved function

bryguy said:
And lastly abear, a patent is proof. You obviosuly don't know what research is if you don't trust a patent. Or would you have me believe that the drug companies spend millions to get a patent because it holds no scientific weight?!
Click to expand...

And many say the numbers in it were made-up. You never attempted to prove Will Brink wrong.

bryguy said:
You rely on breaking things down to build yorself up. Your ego and refusal to accept the evidence presented makes this crystal clear. Grow a spine and do something positive instead of ripping everything you don't understand to make yourself feel better.
Click to expand...

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/tallon8.htm

bryguy said:
And for the record, I do not think I know more than everyone on the board. I just happen to know BS when I smell it, and you reek! I have no problem with what anyone says, or has said. It's just that you act as an authority when you have nothing except other people's words. Something I've learned over the last 13 years in the industry is that it is extremely competetive and complicated. Good products will be bashed by those who stand to make money by doing so. You are an unwitting mouthpiece for this kind of behaviour.
Click to expand...

http://strengthnspeed.tripod.com/AboutSupplements/CreatineReport.htm

bryguy said:
Lastly, I have nothing to gain by saying what I have said. I sell EVERY creatine product and all aminos, herbs, vitamins, minerals, etc. Your insinuation to the contrary is insulting, but I wouldn't expect someone of your caliber to have any better means of getting a point accross. The only reason I have posted what I have is because oc overwhelming customer feedback. You may SAY that Kre-ALkalyn and Glutamine are 'discounted', but those are just empty words. Give a person a product that works and they keep buying it. It is in my interest to provide customers with such products, as this keeps them comming back. Had my business model relied on reactionary publications and sensationalized rhetoric to sell products, I would have been out of business a long time ago. My continued success is a testament to the efficacy of these products; no matter what you or your beloved gurus say.
Click to expand...

As someone else once said "Welcome to Placeboville; Population: YOU"
 
Fil said:
Whoah bryguy, take it easy there, we're all here to have a civil discussion. While I do agree with a lot of what you're saying, we don't have to attack abear =D We like him here!
Click to expand...
Ha, no worries. This is about exposing those who pitch worthless items
 
Your little quote at the end of your posts is quite revealing. He must be talking about you.

You can try to shift around all you want. Re-quote me all you want. The 'proof is in the pudding' as they say.

You condem a supplement based on what OTHERS say. You have no experience on which to base your statements. Therefore, your assertions are invalid.

I have thousands of happy customers who continuoulsy rave about both Kre-Alkalyn and Glutamine. I believe THEM over you. I don't have to participate in your pop-chemistry class or your conspiracy theories (made up patent numbers now, huh?!) to prove my point.

It comes down to this abear: You rely on others who may have alterior motives for your information. I rely on the hundreds of customers that have tried these products and loved them. So, increase the population of 'placebo-ville' to include them!

In the end, you are fighting for your ego whil I am trying to pass along information gained through years of experience. You can beat the war drums all you like, as you are a super moderator or whatever; but you can not devalue the thousands of happy customers who have tried these products and loved them simply on your hearsay.

Bury the hatchet yet?
 
I hope everyone has seen what I've been doing. People like this guy are a dime a dozen. They cannot back up anything they say and they cannot provide any real proof about what they sell. They ignore research and prey on those who just don't know better. Personally, I've fallen for it before. I've wasted my money on weight gainers shakes, Muscletech products, etc. If I can assist others in making good choices then myself and the other regulars are doing their job.

What I've posted has all been said before:

http://www.fitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=74436&postcount=3
http://www.fitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=54411&postcount=6
http://www.fitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=56292&postcount=8

He again discredits himself this time with a knock on the title under my user name (like I had anything to do with that) instead of giving any evidence. Read the links I've posted, look up the people I mentioned. Read, learn, EDUCATE yourself. After being scammed before, there's only a few people that I trust and I won't steer anyone wrong. You can look up my user name on the Men's Health board and see my reputation over there. I've been helping keep the creatine FAQ going

http://forums.menshealth.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/63310347/m/671109561

Make wise choices before you purchase something :)
 
Please Abear, get a grip on your ego! A person can't poke fun without you getting your panties all bunched up!?

Seriously though, not every person is going to bow down to you simply because of your status on the site. I've looked at a great deal of your posts, and probably less than 10% are actually written by you. You like to copy and paste, which tells me that you have no experience on which to base any sound opinion!

No matter what you say, working out is not a purely cerebral exercise. You may think you KNOW EVERYTHING, but you do not. All I have done is share a little anecdotal evidence that points in another direction, and you simply can't stand it. Suddenly I am acused of 'peddling' this product and only supporting it because I sell it?! Cheap shot!

Like I said before, I have been selling supplements at my own independent retail business for over 13 years. I have had success because of good customer feedback, and I feel it is more valuable than your quotes.

Customers like what works. Everyone is different, and not everything will work for everyone, but a product that has 90% + positive feedback will get due recommendation from me. Not because someone wrote something about it, but because hundreds of others have reported that it works for them.

Of course you should educate yourself about a supplement before you buy it! But don't, please DON'T prevent yourself from trying something simply because the GREAT AND POWERFUL ABEAR tells you someone somewhere says it doesn't work!

Again, to imply that I am trying to 'scam' anyone or anything of the like is simply a lie, and a cheap shot. You don't like that I disagree with you?! Too bad. I think you are wrong. You won't be able to shut me up unless you use your super moderator status to kick me off the forum. Should you choose to do so, you will only prove the weakness of your position.

Cheers!:D
 
Okay, I'll take the middle ground here. No attacks no nothing here. Okay. Here we go:

1. Yes, people have used all these supplements in the past and reported good results. Others haven't. We know that different people react differently. But Glutamine, NO2, etc. all have a good breadth of anecdotal evidence to support them, if a lack of clinical trials (which again is true of the entire industry).

2. Is it the placebo effect? I'd be hesitant to say that it's always the placebo effect (just speaking from my own experiences) esp. with Kre-Alkalyn. I don't see how the placebo effect prevents me from having indigestion, bloating, and dehydration -- which Kre-Alkalyn does for me.

3. The patent research does count for something. True, it's made by the manufacturer, but this is almost universally the case for any supplement or drug. The people who file reports saying something DOESN'T work are usually working for competitors or have some vested interest. The government generally doesn't fund this research, so you only get it from commercial funding.

4. Even the most scientific of studies are fundamentally flawed. It was recently agreed upon by the scientific community that the . The people doing the studies are human, and their reasons for doing the study (or the reason they get the results they did) often rely on their agenda or objectives beforehand. If a scientist performs a study in hope that he'll get a certain resultset, it's much more likely that he'll end up with that resultset than if he were unbiased.

5. It's for this same reason that I discount research by creatine manufacturers or those with a vested interest in the success of creatine when it relates to Kre-Alkalyn. Kre-Alkalyn is a patented formula, and the owner of the patent has commercial control over it. If Kre-Alkalyn was recognized for the claims the manufacturer was making, other creatine manufacturers' business would be seriously damaged.

6. The basis for Kre-Alkalyn efficacy is sound and easily supportable. You either believe Kre-Alkalyn raises creatine monohydrate or you don't. If you believe that it raises the pH (the research for this process is given in the patent document) then it would follow suit that you would believe the other claims -- because creatine turns into creatinine when its pH is too low.

7. Finally, all this given together, it seems like there's no way to know whether or not something works. Well there is : try it yourself. Like allopathic medicine, naturopathic medicine is an art. Things will work for you differently than they will work for others. Also, there ARE a lot of financial interests out there -- but you're rarely locked into something.

SO - if you're happy with creatine, there's no reason to switch. If you suffer from creatine side effects or fear kidney damage because you're using a lot, there's no reason not to TRY Kre-Alkalkyn. Again, it makes a difference for me, and I know plenty of people who I've convinced to switch who appreciate the difference.

So with anything, glutamine, NO2, creatine, kre-alkalyn, you name it -- give it a shot if you have questions.

(Also, abear, I just wanted to point out from the other board you posted a post that I thought was funny:)

since the long term effects of creatine are still unknown, how can you say this??
even still in the short term, your body must break creatine down as it cannot cycle it. when it is broken down the products are urea which is not good for the kidneys in large quantities which would result from supplememnting


again, how can you say it has no side effects?
ive had many biochem profs tell me that creatine is good for nothing besides increasing your risk of kidney stones.......
Click to expand...
Biochem professor, like many researchers, don't know their asses from a hole in the ground.
 
WOW! What an interesting thread! Fil sounds like he is the most rational, but I like the cyber-fighting!

How exciting!
 
bryguy said:
Please Abear, get a grip on your ego! A person can't poke fun without you getting your panties all bunched up!?

Seriously though, not every person is going to bow down to you simply because of your status on the site. I've looked at a great deal of your posts, and probably less than 10% are actually written by you. You like to copy and paste, which tells me that you have no experience on which to base any sound opinion!

No matter what you say, working out is not a purely cerebral exercise. You may think you KNOW EVERYTHING, but you do not. All I have done is share a little anecdotal evidence that points in another direction, and you simply can't stand it. Suddenly I am acused of 'peddling' this product and only supporting it because I sell it?! Cheap shot!

Like I said before, I have been selling supplements at my own independent retail business for over 13 years. I have had success because of good customer feedback, and I feel it is more valuable than your quotes.

Customers like what works. Everyone is different, and not everything will work for everyone, but a product that has 90% + positive feedback will get due recommendation from me. Not because someone wrote something about it, but because hundreds of others have reported that it works for them.

Of course you should educate yourself about a supplement before you buy it! But don't, please DON'T prevent yourself from trying something simply because the GREAT AND POWERFUL ABEAR tells you someone somewhere says it doesn't work!

Again, to imply that I am trying to 'scam' anyone or anything of the like is simply a lie, and a cheap shot. You don't like that I disagree with you?! Too bad. I think you are wrong. You won't be able to shut me up unless you use your super moderator status to kick me off the forum. Should you choose to do so, you will only prove the weakness of your position.

Cheers!:D
Click to expand...
 
Fil said:
Okay, I'll take the middle ground here. No attacks no nothing here. Okay. Here we go:

1. Yes, people have used all these supplements in the past and reported good results. Others haven't. We know that different people react differently. But Glutamine, NO2, etc. all have a good breadth of anecdotal evidence to support them, if a lack of clinical trials (which again is true of the entire industry).

2. Is it the placebo effect? I'd be hesitant to say that it's always the placebo effect (just speaking from my own experiences) esp. with Kre-Alkalyn. I don't see how the placebo effect prevents me from having indigestion, bloating, and dehydration -- which Kre-Alkalyn does for me.

3. The patent research does count for something. True, it's made by the manufacturer, but this is almost universally the case for any supplement or drug. The people who file reports saying something DOESN'T work are usually working for competitors or have some vested interest. The government generally doesn't fund this research, so you only get it from commercial funding.

4. Even the most scientific of studies are fundamentally flawed. It was recently agreed upon by the scientific community that the . The people doing the studies are human, and their reasons for doing the study (or the reason they get the results they did) often rely on their agenda or objectives beforehand. If a scientist performs a study in hope that he'll get a certain resultset, it's much more likely that he'll end up with that resultset than if he were unbiased.

5. It's for this same reason that I discount research by creatine manufacturers or those with a vested interest in the success of creatine when it relates to Kre-Alkalyn. Kre-Alkalyn is a patented formula, and the owner of the patent has commercial control over it. If Kre-Alkalyn was recognized for the claims the manufacturer was making, other creatine manufacturers' business would be seriously damaged.

6. The basis for Kre-Alkalyn efficacy is sound and easily supportable. You either believe Kre-Alkalyn raises creatine monohydrate or you don't. If you believe that it raises the pH (the research for this process is given in the patent document) then it would follow suit that you would believe the other claims -- because creatine turns into creatinine when its pH is too low.

7. Finally, all this given together, it seems like there's no way to know whether or not something works. Well there is : try it yourself. Like allopathic medicine, naturopathic medicine is an art. Things will work for you differently than they will work for others. Also, there ARE a lot of financial interests out there -- but you're rarely locked into something.

SO - if you're happy with creatine, there's no reason to switch. If you suffer from creatine side effects or fear kidney damage because you're using a lot, there's no reason not to TRY Kre-Alkalkyn. Again, it makes a difference for me, and I know plenty of people who I've convinced to switch who appreciate the difference.

So with anything, glutamine, NO2, creatine, kre-alkalyn, you name it -- give it a shot if you have questions.

(Also, abear, I just wanted to point out from the other board you posted a post that I thought was funny:)


Biochem professor, like many researchers, don't know their asses from a hole in the ground.
Click to expand...

Dude, I didn't post that. esoitl did.

Check out the link I posted above for even more information to show you guys.
 
Hey abear, what are we looking for in that thread?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top