" Obesity largely determined by genetics, says study "

Now matt how do you know it is a good journal if you don't know how to research the study it comes from eh...

Generally speaking ( this study aside :) ) do you think the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition is a " good journal " in terms of the overall obesity research currently being done and subject to peer review ?

Also, I noticed your website mentions that you are a " leader in research and study in metabolic behavior " and, that you also imply above that you " know how to research the study "

As a leading researcher, did any of your ' research ' happen to involve using or reviewing epidemiologic / anthropometric methodologies as this one does ...or was your ' research ' " done under very controlled conditions " ...or done in some other manner ?

Reason I ask, is because the study seems to try and address your sampling / measuring concerns as being both not uncommon and not an issue by which to invalidate methodologies in these sorts of studies.........


" There is also the potential for bias in volunteer samples, despite a population-based sampling frame, although this potential is common to all epidemiologic studies that depend on voluntary participation. If the participation bias is unrelated to the trait, it may not matter, but overweight families may be reluctant to participate in a study requiring weight reports. However, so long as the volunteer bias is the same in families with monozygotic and dizygotic twins, the twin comparisons remain valid.

In common with many large-scale anthropometric studies, the present study used parental reports of the height, weight, and WC of the children. However, we gave careful guidance on how to take the measurements and showed high correlations between parental reports and all 3 measures in a subsample of families visited at home, which provides confidence in the results. "​
 
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If you don't look at the who what where how of how a study is conducted, then you are blindly assimilating information in a way that fuels the fire of misinformation.

Real scientific studies are done under very controlled conditions, there is in important reason for this.

This study was horribly performed. Period. Does it mean that the conclusions it drew aren't true? Who knows, the study wasn't done good enough to have any idea.

" horribly performed " in what way exactly ?
 
Generally speaking ( this study aside :) ) do you think the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition is a " good journal " in terms of the overall obesity research currently being done and subject to peer review ?

The AJCN is fine. They aren't perfect, nothing like that is. It is not without 100% bias or need. From colleges who need grants, professors who need validation, drug companies stuff pockets, nothing is safe and peer review an published doesn't mean perfect. That is why we should always look at the conditions of the study itself.

This study should get points because it says right off the bat it has large holes? That is like saying "sorry I am going to punch you now but I feel bad about it" before decking your girlfriend.

Most studies have holes and variables but this one is just to large. It was not controlled in any way. A non-controlled study is just a glorified science fair experiment and in some cases not even that good. It is a waste because they could have gone somewhere great with it.

As a leading researcher, did any of your ' research ' happen to involve using or reviewing epidemiologic / anthropometric methodologies as this one does ...or was your ' research ' " done under very controlled conditions " ...or done in some other manner ?

Reason I ask, is because the study seems to try and address your sampling / measuring concerns as being both not uncommon and not an issue by which to invalidate methodologies in these sorts of studies.........

One that is "bio" talk. Not to say I am not involved in the research and publishing community and bringing study ideas to colleges across the country and even in Austrillia and Europe, but none the less, bio talk.

As to where a lot of my focus lies it is pretty simple...

I look at a study, if I feel it is worth further exploring I read the study and all the material given for that study. I focus on the main points of what they use for method of measure and comparison, what were the conditions, what is the experience of those behind the study. Basically I play the role of the annoying kid asking "why" in the back seat of the car you want to smack to see if you give in and say "I DON'T KNOW, JUST CAUSE".

Those sampling styles and methods aren't uncommon, doesn't make them right. I got jenny craig all over my tv, doesn't mean the food is optimal for your health and nutrition. Just a common method.

In the end I am just a chump "fitness pro" trying to utilize solid research and toss aside studies that doesn't make any common sense to me. The first few paragraphs of the study I go "they blew it" because they left all the measuring in the hands of thousands of different people. How can anything like that give conclusive results that and even close to scientific.
 
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Leigh in case your unaware, almost all studies have a paragraph explaining the limitations. It seems as though as soon as you realised no control study you "freaked".
Its not the same as testing acupuncture for example with no control. The study actually compared twins with the same genes, and two with half the same. This is the whole point of the article.

Intsead of (ignorantly?) dismissing this article as no use at all. Why dont you contact the researchers - i looked up one who obtained a phd from oxford and discuss your concerns with them and read what they have to say. Or even the persons from AJCN who peer reviewed it and thought it was acceptable for publishment. Could you post their reply ?

Or should we trust someone like you on the forum and take your word? after all you seem to have achieved a wonderfull acme.
 
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Leigh in case your unaware, almost all studies have a paragraph explaining the limitations
.

After all the studies I have read somehow that just really escaped me. Yet somehow it did escape you where to find the study information in the first place...
It seems as though as soon as you realised no control study you "freaked".

Yes I completely wigged out and frantically explained calmly that while it could lead to be a jumping point for more studies it didn't in anyway prove that obesity was genetically related.

Its not the same as testing acupuncture for example with no control.

I agree because we were discussing the effects of punching needles in those with chub. Stick them all I say.

The study actually compared twins with the same genes, and two with half the same. This is the whole point of the article.

You got that too?
Intsead of (ignorantly?) dismissing this article as no use at all.

I didn't I just said it didn't prove what the article that was originally posted was alluding to, which is that obesity based on this study is genetically related. For the record there is research that does link to being overweight from birth, for example those with thyroid problems or goiter dysfunctions are technically going to have a harder time losing fat and a easy time gaining fat. So technically this issue has been proved already, it just wasn't called "obesity".

Why dont you contact the researchers - i looked up one who obtained a phd from oxford and discuss your concerns with them and read what they have to say. Or even the persons from AJCN who peer reviewed it and thought it was acceptable for publishment. Could you post their reply ?

Why would I want to contact them? To say good job for throwing a golden opportunity into the hand of parents? There is nothing I need to know that wasn't provided in the study.

Or should we trust someone like you on the forum and take your word?
People here listening to me? Nah wont happen, I don't have Bro and Rock On certifications.

after all you seem to have achieved a wonderfull acme.

I achieve the ability of being able to use common sense and read, mostpeople sadly never get the funding.

Question then since those want to have a pissing contest (oh and I got the bucket)...

-Do you believe that they proved obesity, in this study, was genetically determined?
-Do you think that their method of measurement allows proof beyond a reasonable doubt under the circumstance given?
-Could you turn to someone and say that based on this study that big groundbreaking new evidence was found out about obesity?

Because that is my only argument that it doesn't do those things or provide those answers. If you want to talk about the highlight or the good things that can come from it, fine. But the topic was in regards to obesity and the cause, this study didn't prove that.
 
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The study accomplished what it set out to accomplish. A need for more research on the subject of childhood obesity.

The present results may indicate a further increase in the genetic effect, but longitudinal studies across the full span of childhood and adolescence are needed before definite conclusions can be reached.

Research is funny. 90% of it is bunk. Why????

FUNDING!!!

See, college professors need grant money. They also need to be consistently doing research to get tenure, or whatever else is important to researching professors. So actual research is done like this.

1. We want to do research to find out a certain thing.
2. We need to do a lot of studies in order to keep our grant money coming in.
3. So we will research tons of things that are "around" the main thing we are looking to find out.
4. Now we can do 2X as many studies on the same topic.
5. It takes years to get to the studies that actually matter, but at that point the "prestigious researchers" have secured grants as well as an on going reputation for doing lots of research.

How do these studies get into research journals??

The "peers" also need the same type of studies to be published in journals. It is simply a matter of "honor amongst thieves" if you will.

During those years the "practitioners" in the industry have found the answers through real time involvement and observation. So, much of the research is generally outdated by the time anything that matters comes out.

The best information from the fitness industry, and the general health field, comes from people who are "in the trenches" so to speak and are actually applying the information that they learn.

The best research done in the health and fitness fields (figured I would stick with fitness given that this is a fitness forum) was done in eastern block European communist countries. Why??? The goal of their research was to be able to win gold medals in the Olympics. With a specific performance goal and a time line to do better in 4 years, the proper motivation was there to make real scientific progress.

As far as genetics and obesity go there are only a few possible explanations.

1. More people in first world countries have the "obese" gene than other countries. Which, to me, seems unlikely.

2. Basic genetics (obesity, strength, and other large and modifiable abilities) can be changed in FAR fewer generations than people think. So 1 or 2 generations of people living in the "fast food" world are able to modify the genetics for increased body-fat in future generations. And I Quote -

Genetic influences on BMI and abdominal adiposity are high in children born since the onset of the pediatric obesity epidemic.

hhhhhmmmmmmmmmmm........

3. Genitics are not different today than they were 50 years ago. The activity level is much lower and the consumption of "crappy" food is much higher.

Personally I believe it is a combination of #2 and #3.

I figured I would put in my 2 cents and shed some light on the whole "research" thing.

Food for thought. Thanks for reading. :D:beerchug:
 
Ill try to reply to the jumbled responses :p

+ It didnt escape me? i just thought it was provided in the link by wrangell.
+ From my memory you said it was flawed/useless/initiator. Whatever euphemism you want. You said it was trash fullstop.
Seems as though your twisting your words, backing down on your original thought/stance. But i dont mind, good to see your willing to change your mind when necessary.
+ And please, please dont say it doesnt prove, DUH! Its merely adding as evidence to the growing findings on how genetics influence obesity, highlighting its limitations and opinions so that future research can fill in any "holes".

Good luck into your future readings.
 
The best research done in the health and fitness fields (figured I would stick with fitness given that this is a fitness forum) was done in eastern block European communist countries. Why??? The goal of their research was to be able to win gold medals in the Olympics. With a specific performance goal and a time line to do better in 4 years, the proper motivation was there to make real scientific progress.
:rofl:

As far as genetics and obesity go there are only a few possible explanations.

1. More people in first world countries have the "obese" gene than other countries. Which, to me, seems unlikely.

Well there is no single obese gene, there are many genes involved that differ in the way they increase the likelyhood of obesity.

2. Basic genetics (obesity, strength, and other large and modifiable abilities) can be changed in FAR fewer generations than people think. So 1 or 2 generations of people living in the "fast food" world are able to modify the genetics for increased body-fat in future generations.

Modify there genetics?



hhhhhmmmmmmmmmmm........

3. Genitics are not different today than they were 50 years ago. The activity level is much lower and the consumption of "crappy" food is much higher.
And the consequences influenced by gentetics. Whats your point?
 
The AJCN is fine. They aren't perfect, nothing like that is. It is not without 100% bias or need.

No one is suggesting otherwise.

From colleges who need grants, professors who need validation, drug companies stuff pockets, nothing is safe and peer review an published doesn't mean perfect. That is why we should always look at the conditions of the study itself.

Agreed.

This study should get points because it says right off the bat it has large holes? That is like saying "sorry I am going to punch you now but I feel bad about it" before decking your girlfriend. Most studies have holes and variables but this one is just to large.

Like what exactly ?

It was not controlled in any way. A non-controlled study is just a glorified science fair experiment and in some cases not even that good. It is a waste because they could have gone somewhere great with it.

Well, studies like the Busselton Health Study and the The Framingham Heart Study are examples of epidemiological studies that aren't " controlled " studies - do you consider them to be studies of " science fair " quality as well ?

One that is "bio" talk. Not to say I am not involved in the research and publishing community and bringing study ideas to colleges across the country and even in Austrillia and Europe, but none the less, bio talk.

Actually, it's just that your website mentions that you are a " leader in research and study in metabolic behavior " so I was just wondering what ' research ' work you did to afford yourself the self-distinction of being a ' leading researcher ' in your field and the type of ' research ' you actually do - i.e epidemiologic / anthropometric studies, controlled studies etc.

You mentioned you have dialog / " ideas " on ' research ' with various academic institutions ( i.e colleges ) around the world.

Curious, which degree(s) / majors did you get in university that gave you the solid academic grounding you needed to both conduct the sort of research you currently do and to critique other research from a position of expertise ?

I look at a study, if I feel it is worth further exploring I read the study and all the material given for that study. I focus on the main points of what they use for method of measure and comparison, what were the conditions, what is the experience of those behind the study..

Not unlike the same thought process the various academics on the review panel reviewing studies for publication in the the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition go through as well I suspect.:D

Those sampling styles and methods aren't uncommon, doesn't make them right.

Nor does it make them " wrong " or invalid either.

I got jenny craig all over my tv, doesn't mean the food is optimal for your health and nutrition. Just a common method.

No one is suggesting otherwise

In the end I am just a chump "fitness pro" trying to utilize solid research and toss aside studies that doesn't make any common sense to me. The first few paragraphs of the study I go "they blew it" because they left all the measuring in the hands of thousands of different people. How can anything like that give conclusive results that and even close to scientific.

Again, from the link....

"
In common with many large-scale anthropometric studies, the present study used parental reports of the height, weight, and WC of the children. However, we gave careful guidance on how to take the measurements and showed high correlations between parental reports and all 3 measures in a subsample of families visited at home, which provides confidence in the results
. "
 
1.I am truly flattered at the collective effort here and that you would take the time to examine my site. For the record I have jack for credentials and education nor do I really care. I am good at using my email when the need arises. People have these virtual mailboxes and I sent messages to them. Sometimes they send messages back, it's weird.

2.It still stands...
http://tinypic.com/5ppnj8
 
Obesity is not down to genetics. Look at Eskimos or people in Asia who traditionally ate healthy food but when junk food was exported to them they have become just as obese as every one else.
 
I think obesity may be genetic. Like some people are tall and others are short, why can't how you store fat also be a genetic trait?

I mean I think genetically speaking, you will favor certain type of food better than other. If you favor candy and things of that nature, then it is more likely that you will become obese simply because of the high calories.

I mean look at families with large amount of brothers and sisters. You will see that in some cases, there is always one who is larger than the rest. Why is this so? Everyone probably eats the same food and probably gets the same amount of exercise.

Even more so, if you look at natives in those discovery channel, you will see that some are larger than others. Why is this? They eat the same food and they have to actually hunt for their food.

I think genetics will determine your overall body shape and whether or not your body favors to store fat more than usual. I think you can control things like eating excessive chocolate if you're genetically programmed to like those type of food. But I think any internal actions, such as fat storage and height and so fort cannot be altered.
 
Of course there are obese genes, obesity is genetic. That being said, the environment greatly influences these genes.

Those that have obese genes would have been at an advantage hundreds, thousands of years ago. Although in this day and age it is seems it is the reverse.
 
Obesity wasn't a big problem until the creation of:

1. Fast food // processed foods
2. TVs/Video games/electronics

Stop playing being fat on genetics. Yes some people might gain fat easier than others, does not justify them being obese though.
 
Obesity wasn't a big problem until the creation of:

1. Fast food // processed foods
2. TVs/Video games/electronics

Stop playing being fat on genetics. Yes some people might gain fat easier than others, does not justify them being obese though.


Well for obese genes to "kick in", obviously you need the environment to influence them. Come on Phate, its a no brainer.

Cant comprehend this either? :rofl::beerchug:
 
I'm not justifying anyone for being obese, even with these genes (some may not even have them), you can still maintain a healthy weight by eating and exercising well.

Although some people will always be overweight because of tyroid problems etc. Being overweight isn't even that bad, it's your metabolic profile that counts.
 
Being overweight isn't even that bad, it's your metabolic profile that counts.

Genetics also influences what level of body fat is dangerous for you. Some people can have considerable amounts of excess body fat and not have problems with blood sugar (diabetes), LDL cholesterol levels (coronary artery disease), etc.. But some people need to keep their body fat down to athlete levels just to avoid (for example) elevated blood sugar levels.
 
Genetics also influences what level of body fat is dangerous for you. Some people can have considerable amounts of excess body fat and not have problems with blood sugar (diabetes), LDL cholesterol levels (coronary artery disease), etc.. But some people need to keep their body fat down to athlete levels just to avoid (for example) elevated blood sugar levels.

Agreed, My bp wasn't ideal until I got down pretty lean by most standards
 
Its where the fat is stored rather than the amount that is of importance.
 
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