Sport Low carb, glycogen, protein breakdown questions

[Karky]

I'm currently trying the anabolic diet, which is a low carb diet. At the same time I'm reading up on low carb and I came across something. I am trying to gain weight and muscle BTW, not losing weight.
all quotes from:

Of course, when carbohydrates are restricted completely, the body has to find something to make glucose out of. That something is lactate and pyruvate (produced from glucose metabolism), glycerol (from fat metabolism) and amino acids. It's the amino acid use that can be problematic since they have to come from somewhere. Under conditions of total starvation, that somewhere is generally muscle tissue; the body will readily break down protein to scavenge the amino acids it needs to produce glucose. In doing so, the muscle released alanine and glutamine (produced in the muscle from the breakdown of leucine and the branch chained amino acids, so you know) which can be converted to glucose in the liver.

He uses the word starvation. So if you're not in starvation, this isn't as big of an issue? And this means you can't make glucose from fat, right?
The biggest issue I have with low carb diets is the protein thing, I don't want to burn my muscles for energy, but I thought the fat would take care of that.

A few paragraphs down he writes this:

However, there is an alternate way to limit the use of body protein when carbohydrates are being severely restricted. As few as 15 grams of carbohydrates per day has been shown to limit nitrogen loss and 50 grams of carbohydrate per day severely limits the need for the body to use amino acids for gluoconeogenesis. Not only will it maintain blood glucose and insulin at a slightly higher level (thus inhibiting cortisol release), it directly provides glucose for the brain, limiting the need to break down protein in the first place.

So 15g, well I get that per day, usually somewhere around 30 is what I get.

then he talks about muscle glycogen:

he carbohydrate requirements for weight training actually aren't that great. I did some calculations in my first book and concluded that, for every 2 work sets or so, you'll need 5 grams of carbohydrates to replenish the glycogen used. So if you did a workout containing 24 work sets, you'd only need about 60 extra grams (24 sets * 5 grams/2 sets = 60 grams) of carbohydrate to replace the glycogen used. So if you were starting at the bare minimum of 50 grams per day and were doing roughly 24 sets/workout, you'd need to consume an additional 60 grams (total 110 grams/day) to cover it. If you didn't function well in ketosis and were starting at the 100 g/day, you'd increase to 160 g/day. If you don't feel like doing such calculations, an intake of 1 g/lb or ~2 grams/kg lean body mass can probably be considered a practical minimum (an exception is various cyclical ketogenic diets which I'll discuss in a later chapter).

Now, for gaining muscle or for losing fat, is it needed to keep the glycogen stores up? Is this what the carb ups are for? That you deplete the stores over your low carb period and then build them up again when you carb up? (the anabolic diet has you carbing for 2 days every week, except the first 2 weeks). Will performance differ much from having full glycogen stores to having not so full. Weight training is my activity and he says weight training doesn't take that much glycogen, so my stores shouldn't be near empty when I carb up. will having "half full" glycogen stores impact performance as opposed to having "full" glycogen stores?

He also mentions he doesn't know where the 30g "limit" for low fat ketonic diets come from, neither do I.. does anyone know? I'm trying to stay below 30, however, the anabolic diet says 5% and 5% of my cals is more than 30g carbs.. (in an article on t-nation about the anabolic diet, the diet says 5% AND the guy writing says 30g..)

If I understand this right:
a lot of carbs = higher insulin in blood, insulin leads to hormones that promotes storing energy as fat and prevents fat being used for energy

He says:

Bodybuilders have typically used this approach while dieting, jacking up protein in hopes that it will limit muscle loss. Unfortunately, this is only successful when protein intake is insufficient in the first place. The breakdown of muscle protein is as much hormonally controlled by low insulin, falling testosterone, high cortisol and catecholamines as by nutrient availability. All of the protein in the world won't help when your hormones are putting your body in an inherently catabolic state.

I always thought that less carbs would lead to higher testosterone levels..? He doesn't specifically that carbs are the source of "your hormones ... putting your body in an inherently catabolic state" but from the rest of the article it seems so..

thanks in advance. And to people who do reply, please try to see it from an objective viewpoint. I really don't like it when people/articles support one thing and say only good things about it. I've been reading some articles pro, they all mention lower insulin is good because it promotes fat being used and with high insulin your body will be more inclined to storing energy as fat, but mention none of the negative sides low insulin can have..

 

[Phate89]

The biggest issue I have with low carb diets is the protein thing, I don't want to burn my muscles for energy, but I thought the fat would take care of that.

Fat will be used as energy if the majority of your intake comes from fat.
Thats why it's what...65% fat ?

Now, for gaining muscle or for losing fat, is it needed to keep the glycogen stores up? Is this what the carb ups are for? That you deplete the stores over your low carb period and then build them up again when you carb up? (the anabolic diet has you carbing for 2 days every week, except the first 2 weeks). Will performance differ much from having full glycogen stores to having not so full. Weight training is my activity and he says weight training doesn't take that much glycogen, so my stores shouldn't be near empty when I carb up. will having "half full" glycogen stores impact performance as opposed to having "full" glycogen stores?

From what i've read on T-nation in their anabolic thread they say that the purpose of the carb-up glycogen stores. I remember them saying something about during weight-lifting your body wont use protein or fat as energy and only carbs. and during the week that 30grams of carbs will be set-aside by your body for only heavy lifting. And thats why if your workout is lets say, thursday or friday, your workout will suffer a little bit because your glycogen stores are almost depleted.

He also mentions he doesn't know where the 30g "limit" for low fat ketonic diets come from, neither do I.. does anyone know? I'm trying to stay below 30, however, the anabolic diet says 5% and 5% of my cals is more than 30g carbs.. (in an article on t-nation about the anabolic diet, the diet says 5% AND the guy writing says 30g..)

I think 5% is the average. But from everything i've seen, 30grams is set in stone and you shouldn't go over it.

I always thought that less carbs would lead to higher testosterone levels..?

Well, people say your T-levels rise on the AD because your consuming large amounts of saturated fat from red meat. and we all know saturated fat increases T-levels.

You probably know most of this though

I highly recommend you post your question on the official AD thread on the T-nation forums ( most largely discussed thread on the AD on the interweb )

TMAGNUM FORUMS - My Experience On the Anabolic Diet

 

[spicypumpkin]

Well, I know that hormones are not made "from" carbs so no, carbs aren't the source of your hormones. But, carbs do initiate the release of one of the most anabolic hormones in your body. That hormone is insulin. I'm pretty sure that's what this guy is talking about. If you strictly limit your carbs, your body has no reason to produce very much insulin. And since it's an anabolic hormone, you end up with less anabolic activity. With less anabolic activity, it is true that you store less fat, but you also build less muscle.

Maybe some of the carb cycling in the later phase of the diet will help a little. But still. Carbs are pretty essential. I personally want to get about half of my calories from them. Our brain needs glucose, and while it is true that it can run on ketones made by breaking down fat. It's definitely not ideal. Under extreme conditions, you can screw with your body's pH (highly unlikely though). The body only resorts to this when you're starving or when you can't metabolize glucose (like with diabetes). The point is, it's probably not a good idea to intentionally push your body to this point just to lose fat. There are other ways.

You will inevitably find very convincing evidence for all sides of this argument. Your job is to try to find as much information as possible and make your own decision. Keep in mind that the people supporting a certain diet or eating plan are most likely doing it so they can sell something. Try to make an informed decision that is right for you individually.

 

[matt182]

A lot of hocus pocus talk going on..

I just curious as to why you think saturated fat increases testosterone (other than reading t nation articles). Any scientific journals on it?

 

[Karky]

Matt, do you have any opinions on low carb diets?

And While it is true that some parts of the brain require glucose, I still get some carbs, the goal of this diet is not to go into a ketonic state with ketones in the urine. And you can break down proteins for glucose if I am correct.

 

[matt182]

Well i certainly wouldnt prescibe any low carb diet for anyone.

Its about consistently eating good foods for you like veges, fruit (all of which have plenty of good carbs), good fats etc. Complement with exercise and your results will come. Of course different people will get different low body fat scores, this is due to many potential factors metabolically, trying to force yourself below a certain level isnt doing you any favours in the long run.

Your body strives on glucose, it evolved by it. I dont think working against it would be wise. Thats just my opinion anyway, why do you even want to lose more bodyfat, from the pictures ive seen of you your anything but fat.

 

[Karky]

I don't want to lose bodyfat, not yet anyway. The anabolic diet isn't just about that, you can bulk on it. The body evolved on glucoses? How so? we didn't have much grains and stuff that long ago.. just nuts, meat, fruits, berries, etc. All things that I eat (except fruits which I only eat 2 days a week on my carb ups)
what is so bad about going low carb? Can't all the body functions still function without carbs? I've heard they can. The main idea behind low carb is trying to control insulin, a lot of insulin leads to a lot of fat storing hormones, doesn't it? It is really hard making up your mind when some say that eating like this will give you more test, etc, while some say the opposite, and both seem to back it scientifically.

 

[matt182]

Its not about just getting carbs (even though 30g isnt enough anyway), all the good carbs are associated with vitamins, minerals, antioxidents etc. Im assuming a lot of meat and dairy products would be consumed to which is not healthy.

Heres just a really usefull article i found including some studies by one of the best nutrional journals - New Eng jrl of med.

 

[matt182]

Its not about just getting carbs (even though 30g isnt enough anyway), all the good carbs are associated with vitamins, minerals, antioxidents etc. Im assuming a lot of meat and dairy products would be consumed to which is not healthy.

Heres just a really usefull article i found including some studies by one of the best nutrional journals - New Eng jrl of med.

 

[Karky]

why is meat not healthy? because of high cholesterol? I'm not buying that.. the thing I am concerned about are unhealthy fats, however a lot of people say that satured fats are only dangeraus in combination with carbs

the vitamin, antioxidants argument is a good one, and a lot of people recommend taking a multi vitamin for this reason (of course, this is not optimal as getting it from real foods will be the best)

I don't think that article was working, maybe I have to sign up. and again, it looked like a typical biased article, I really want an objective view, instead of the "10 good reasons to limit carbs" or "5 things wrong with low carb diets" etc. And both sides have scientific evidence to back up their claims. it is impossible to determine who is right.. at least so it seems to me.
are there any articles out there that take on both the positive and negative side effects, investigates some of the claims that both the pro and anti low carb people make?

 

[Wrangell]

Good thread Karky.

You said " trying to gain weight and muscle BTW, not losing weight "

Couple of background questions....

- what sort of time frame are you giving yourself for this ' bulking phase ' of your training ? 8 weeks, 12 weeks ? 16 weeks ?

- what would you accept as a reasonable gain in both lbs. of fat and lbs of muscle during this phase ... i.e for example, assume for argument's sake, it was a 16 week long bulking phase ?

- what is your target calorie intake - calories per pound of body weight - during this bulking phase ?

- what is your target protein intake - grams per pound of body weight - during this bulking phase ?

- what sort of body fat % measurement tool will you use to track your progress ?​

 

[Karky]

I haven't decided on any time frame to be honest, I will continue until I feel too fat, then I will cut.

Reasonable gains is hard to predict, as I have no idea what I'm capable of there. 16 weeks, I think I'm gonna go for 0.5kg increase every week, so 8 kg total.. how much will be muscle and how much will be fat is hard to say.

I'm going for 4000 cals a day now and I'm 220 lbs so about 18 cals per pound. If this doesn't give me the weight increase I'm looking for, I'll up the cals. 4000 has been enough previously though, but this diet is a completely different approach than I have used before.

With 4000 cals I eat about 300 g of protein per day, however, according to the principles of the anabolic diet, I should be at 35%, 300g is 30% so I'm really 5% short. I'm working on evening that out. 1.36g of protein per pound of bodyweight is what I am at now, but to get to 35% I will need 350g of protein which is 1.59g per lb of bodyweight.
Question: Do you think those 5% will matter much? When thinking in terms of % it doesn't seem like a lot, but 50g of protein is quite a bit..

I don't have any body fat measuring tools right now.. I don't trust scales, I have calipers at my home town (far away, I'm currently studying at a university) but I don't really like them for measuring fat gain, since they don't measure fat under the abs, which is where I usually add on. I will be stepping on the scale and measuring weight once or twice every week, I will also measure my tigh, chest, overarms, calfs, neck and forearms. And of course, I will see if strength in the weight room improves, that is the most important part for me. This is more of me trying a new thing, sorta like a scientific experiment on myself.. and probably a bad one at best since I couldn't really give a clear answer to most of your questions

Thanks for taking the time everyone.

 

[spicypumpkin]

I don't want to lose bodyfat, not yet anyway. The anabolic diet isn't just about that, you can bulk on it.

Yeah, you can technically bulk on any diet as long as you eat enough. But I don't believe this is the best way to do it. While it's called the "anabolic" diet, it makes me really skeptical because one of it's goals is to actually reduce a very anabolic hormone in your body. There are better ways to bulk.

The body evolved on glucoses? How so? we didn't have much grains and stuff that long ago.. just nuts, meat, fruits, berries, etc. All things that I eat (except fruits which I only eat 2 days a week on my carb ups)

Glucose doesn't come from just grains. You find carbohydrates in every plant food. And yes, we did evolve on it or else our brains wouldn't need it, and we wouldn't have evolved highly specialized hormones to deal with it.

what is so bad about going low carb? Can't all the body functions still function without carbs? I've heard they can.

Yes, the body can survive without carbs. For a relatively short period of time. Like I said before, pushing it so far as to go into a ketonic state is not a good idea. That's your body's list defense in times of starvation. Why not work with your body, and eat they way you were designed to eat?

The main idea behind low carb is trying to control insulin, a lot of insulin leads to a lot of fat storing hormones, doesn't it? It is really hard making up your mind when some say that eating like this will give you more test, etc, while some say the opposite, and both seem to back it scientifically.

Okay, you can find scientific evidence to "back" anything. But anyone who claims that something absolutely causes another thing to happen is probably not to be entirely trusted.

On insulin. Yeah, maybe people with high insulin levels have more fat. But what is this guy basing his assumption on? Was there an actual scientific experiment to test this? I highly doubt that normal insulin levels cause normal people to store abnormal amounts of fat. Plenty of people have normal levels of fat, and get this, they eat carbs.

Like I said, insulin is an anabolic hormone, so inhibiting it's release in the so called "anabolic" diet seems strange. It looks like this diet is for fat loss and weight loss, and extreme fat loss at that. If you want to bulk, it will be a lot easier on you and your body if you eat a normal carb intake.

 

[Karky]

the anabolic diet is for gaining weight, you can argue that you don't think it is good for that, but the author intended it to be used in such a way. I agree that the insulin thing is a bit strange, but it is about minimizing fat gain with gaining muscle, and do you need insulin to build muscle? What does insulin do that makes it so useful in the muscle building process? Can't protein get "in to" the muscle without insulin?

I'm not saying carbs are evil and will make you obese, but insulin promotes fat storage, doesn't mean everything you eat with elevated levels of insulin in your blood will be stored as fat, it is not that black and white.

Why isn't it a good idea to be in ketosis (bear in mind, the anabolic diet shouldn't make you go into a ketonic state with ketones in your urine, the author thinks that is bad as it means you are just urinating out the ketones instead of using them as energy and thus breaking down a lot of protein for energy) I don't need to hear things about defense against starvation, I want to know if it is bad for you and if so, why?

The evolution argument is a complex one, a very complex one, and one that should be used carefully. We could have developed insulin to deal with carbs in fruits, berries, veggies, etc. or it could be from animals before us in the evolution that ate more plants than used to do.

and who is saying that one thing absolutely causes another thing to happen?

The main problems I have with the low carb approach now are the ones about insulin (is it that needed to build muscle? and why? Won't my 2 days a week of carbing help here?)
and if the body will break down a lot of muscle to make glucose of. Keeping a carb intake of over 30g a day and eating a lot of protein is suppose to prevent this from happening, but I'm not sure.
I'd really like to get some input on those two problems.

 

[Hoss]

I'm currently trying the anabolic diet, which is a low carb diet. At the same time I'm reading up on low carb and I came across something. I am trying to gain weight and muscle BTW, not losing weight.
all quotes from:



He uses the word starvation. So if you're not in starvation, this isn't as big of an issue? And this means you can't make glucose from fat, right?
The biggest issue I have with low carb diets is the protein thing, I don't want to burn my muscles for energy, but I thought the fat would take care of that.

Very true, the precursers to gluconeogenesis are aminoacids (except leucine and lysine if I remember), and pyruvate/lactate. Beta oxidation yields acetylCoA which is already to far and isn't readily converted back. And no the fat isn't going to stop the body from using aminoacids to make glucose.

A few paragraphs down he writes this:


So 15g, well I get that per day, usually somewhere around 30 is what I get.

Keep in mind that the brain alone uses around 150g of carbs per day! So 15-30g will be on the very low side of 'enough'.

then he talks about muscle glycogen:


Now, for gaining muscle or for losing fat, is it needed to keep the glycogen stores up? Is this what the carb ups are for? That you deplete the stores over your low carb period and then build them up again when you carb up? (the anabolic diet has you carbing for 2 days every week, except the first 2 weeks). Will performance differ much from having full glycogen stores to having not so full. Weight training is my activity and he says weight training doesn't take that much glycogen, so my stores shouldn't be near empty when I carb up. will having "half full" glycogen stores impact performance as opposed to having "full" glycogen stores?

There is a difference. Your body only has so much CP to go around and when that's done, and plasma glucose is low you need it from somewhere. Your first sets may feel okay but you'll fade very quick.

He also mentions he doesn't know where the 30g "limit" for low fat ketonic diets come from, neither do I.. does anyone know? I'm trying to stay below 30, however, the anabolic diet says 5% and 5% of my cals is more than 30g carbs.. (in an article on t-nation about the anabolic diet, the diet says 5% AND the guy writing says 30g..)

No idea where that came from.

If I understand this right:
a lot of carbs = higher insulin in blood, insulin leads to hormones that promotes storing energy as fat and prevents fat being used for energy

Insulin does a lot more than just trigger the uptake of fat. It also triggers the uptake of other macromolecules. Insulin is the single most anabolic substance in the human body, and I'm not exactly sure why people run from the thing that triggers it's release (carbs). IMO more people need to utilize those bits of information to their advantage. If you know carbs will help your performance by keeping glycogen ~200g in the liver, but you also know it will stop Boxidation when consumed with fats or any other time. Then why not keep fats away from carbs all together? Best of both worlds perhaps, it seems so simple, yet very few use this method. And I assure you it's not because of poor results.

He says:


I always thought that less carbs would lead to higher testosterone levels..? He doesn't specifically that carbs are the source of "your hormones ... putting your body in an inherently catabolic state" but from the rest of the article it seems so..

Testosterone is a funny thing. People try to use that as a guide to how good they're triggering anabolism (a few years ago myself included), but the fact is there are so many hormones involved in anabolism that you're better off judging the end results as opposed to the pieces. You can only change what you put in to get to your goal of what comes out.

thanks in advance. And to people who do reply, please try to see it from an objective viewpoint. I really don't like it when people/articles support one thing and say only good things about it. I've been reading some articles pro, they all mention lower insulin is good because it promotes fat being used and with high insulin your body will be more inclined to storing energy as fat, but mention none of the negative sides low insulin can have..

Hope this helps a bit.

 

[Hoss]

the anabolic diet is for gaining weight, you can argue that you don't think it is good for that, but the author intended it to be used in such a way. I agree that the insulin thing is a bit strange, but it is about minimizing fat gain with gaining muscle, and do you need insulin to build muscle? What does insulin do that makes it so useful in the muscle building process? Can't protein get "in to" the muscle without insulin?

I'm not saying carbs are evil and will make you obese, but insulin promotes fat storage, doesn't mean everything you eat with elevated levels of insulin in your blood will be stored as fat, it is not that black and white.

Why isn't it a good idea to be in ketosis (bear in mind, the anabolic diet shouldn't make you go into a ketonic state with ketones in your urine, the author thinks that is bad as it means you are just urinating out the ketones instead of using them as energy and thus breaking down a lot of protein for energy) I don't need to hear things about defense against starvation, I want to know if it is bad for you and if so, why?

The evolution argument is a complex one, a very complex one, and one that should be used carefully. We could have developed insulin to deal with carbs in fruits, berries, veggies, etc. or it could be from animals before us in the evolution that ate more plants than used to do.

and who is saying that one thing absolutely causes another thing to happen?

The main problems I have with the low carb approach now are the ones about insulin (is it that needed to build muscle? and why? Won't my 2 days a week of carbing help here?)
and if the body will break down a lot of muscle to make glucose of. Keeping a carb intake of over 30g a day and eating a lot of protein is suppose to prevent this from happening, but I'm not sure.
I'd really like to get some input on those two problems.

The problem is the half-life of insulin is very short, so you're 2 days out of the week aren't going to help on those other 5. You don't store it at all, and it is needed to build good muscle.

 

[Karky]

why is it needed to build good muscle?

 

[Hoss]

good = good amounts.

Because of how anabolic it is. It's like building a roof without a nail gun, sure you can do it but why?

 

[Karky]

I don't need analogies, I need to know why insulin is so important in building muscle, why you won't be able to build good amounts without it. I know it is an anabolic hormone, but I don't know how it works in relation to muscle building. all I know is that after a workout it helps pump protein into your muscles quickly, is that all there is to it?

 

[Hoss]

Yeah the most anabolic trait (concerning muscle growth) is that it increases protein synthesis/DNA replication, this is due to the increase of amino acid uptake by the cells. It also decreases proteinolysis (obviously). If you want specific pathways and receptors I'm gonna have to pull out my biochemistry book!

And these aren't only after a workout, it does these things whenever you have high levels. The problem is the increased fattyacid and glycogen synthesis.