Sport Low carb, glycogen, protein breakdown questions

[realworksuks]

Surely " one set per bodypart per week " doesn't require 5,500 calories a day does it ?

curious, once you got beyond this " prime phase ", can I assume you cranked things up and hit the weights pretty hard in order to put on as much mass as you could in order to bulk up ....as quickly as you could ?

How long would one of your really intense weight training sessions typically last ?

I assume you hit the weights 3X a week ?

Wrangell:

I was not eating a keto type of diet when I was doing the prime phase, i.e. one set per bodypart.

I was eating, for the most part, a slight defecit, or maintance diet, and yes, I was eating carbs, or a "normal" diet.

Some of the days I went over my maintance, though..... by quite a lot too, my birthday was over this time, so I went out to eat a couple times...


I know you just want to scrutinize about my training methods, but I will indulge you, what the hell.

During the prime phase I had a primary and secondary exericise for each bodypart, I did one work set for each of those. So, when I said one set I really meant 2 sets.

After the prime phase I did 5 sets for each of the exercises, or 10 total sets per bodypart.

I trained five days per week, time for each training session was 1.5 hours about.

If you are truly interested just read my journal, it's all in there.

 

[realworksuks]

RWS: When did you do the weighing on your cut compared to your carb ups (if you had any, that is)

Not sure what your asking Karky...?

My carb ups were at least a week away from my bodyfat tests.

 

[Karky]

just wondering, since after your carb ups you might have been holding more water weight.

 

[Wrangell]

I still don't see the point in giving you credit for a question, now if it was a answer or theory i was passing off as my own then yes, it would be wrong for me not the link the thread. I was just acting as a messenger and posting the question on another forum, which i see nothing wrong with

Exactly.

You just made my point for me.........thanks.

All I want YOU to see is not to judge a program you haven't been through yourself or haven't researched extensively.

Sadly, you can't always get what you want.

btw - have you " researched extensively " or had extensive experience with either the " keto diet " and or the " anabolic diet " ?

I haven't...that's why I'm asking questions about them...in hopes of learning more about them.

Science and book smarts can only get you so far Matt and Wrangell.

Tell me Phate89, is the " keto diet " and " anabolic diet " grounded in generally accepted scientific principles .......or is it based on something else in your view ?

It doesn't matter if the body fat tests weren't accurate, if they weren't accurate then they were precise.

There is a difference.

If you say so.

 

[Wrangell]

Wrangell:

I was not eating a keto type of diet when I was doing the prime phase, i.e. one set per bodypart.

I was eating, for the most part, a slight defecit, or maintance diet, and yes, I was eating carbs, or a "normal" diet.

Some of the days I went over my maintance, though..... by quite a lot too, my birthday was over this time, so I went out to eat a couple times..

Sorry, my mistake. I mis-interpreted your comments

I stand corrected.

I know you just want to scrutinize about my training methods, but I will indulge you, what the hell.

Not at all.

Actually, I couldn't care less about the exact details of the various exercises, sets, reps etc. pertaining to the resistance training regimen you undertook.

My question about your weight training was more in the context of the discussion in this thread about depleting glycogen stores.

During the prime phase I had a primary and secondary exericise for each bodypart, I did one work set for each of those. So, when I said one set I really meant 2 sets.

After the prime phase I did 5 sets for each of the exercises, or 10 total sets per bodypart.

I trained five days per week, time for each training session was 1.5 hours about.

Just to confirm..... so I don't mis-interpret your comments again.

You when you trained hard to add muscle, you trained 1.5 hours a day, 5 days a week, consuming around 5,500 calories a day of which you consumed 70 - 100 grams from carbs ( or about 400 calories )...did I get that right ?

If you are truly interested just read my journal, it's all in there.

I not really that interested...so I think I'll pass.

 

[Wrangell]

BTW Wrangell, the average adult liver has much less glycogen that that, and even if you included all the muscles it still doesn't near that number.

The most often reference I've seen to an ' average person " is someone weighing about 150 lbs or so. Based on your academic studies, have you run across any sort of ballpark consensus as to how many carb calories an ' average person " like this might have stored in their......

- liver ?

- muscle ?

- blood glucose ?
​

Because, taking the " average adult liver " that you cited above as an example, there seems to be some variability in the estimates on the amount of glycogen / carb calories contained in our livers. I have one book source that claims 320 calories of carbs are stored in the liver, another says it's a range of 360 - 440 calories of carbs stored in the liver, another at 306 calories and yet another at 260 calories.

Thoughts ?

 

[realworksuks]

You when you trained hard to add muscle, you trained 1.5 hours a day, 5 days a week, consuming around 5,500 calories a day of which you consumed 70 - 100 grams of carbs ( or about 400 calories )...did I get that right ?



I not really that interested...so I think I'll pass.

No Wrangell :drooling1: I was on a 'normal' diet


That's why I thought you were just looking to start bashing my training program, because it didn't have a damn thing to do with the topic at hand.

 

[Wrangell]

No Wrangell :drooling1: I was on a 'normal' diet


That's why I thought you were just looking to start bashing my training program, because it didn't have a damn thing to do with the topic at hand.

Like I said, I have no interest in bashing your training program.

But, you did say you consumed 5,500 calories a day ( i.e 70 - 100 grams of carbs a day ? ) as part of " keto bulk " diet - presumably in order to put on some muscle " bulk " ( or so I thought ) .....i.e. as in when you said " This was still on a keto bulk eating 5500 calories per day "

Or have I got that wrong too ?

I guess I assumed if you were only 156 lbs or so and yet scarfing down 5,500 calories day, you were doing some hard training to justify those mega calories.

btw - on this 5,500 calorie a day " keto bulk " diet you did....

- what % of the 5,500 calories came from fat ?

- what % of the 5,500 calories came from protien ?​

 

[Hoss]

Okay that makes sense. I think in your other post you meant calories and said grams.. If you meant about 400 calories that's in the ballpark. As far as numbers, I know I've got liver and muscle numbers, which are supposedly 90/10%. And I think blood glucose is negligible because of how small it is, and if it's high the hexo/glucokinase will clear it to normal levels pretty quick.

 

[realworksuks]

Like I said, I have no interest in bashing your training program.

But, you did say you consumed 5,500 calories a day ( i.e 70 - 100 grams of carbs a day ? ) as part of " keto bulk " diet - presumably in order to put on some muscle " bulk " ( or so I thought ) .....i.e. as in when you said " This was still on a keto bulk eating 5500 calories per day "

Or have I got that wrong too ?

I guess I assumed if you were only 156 lbs or so and yet scarfing down 5,500 calories day, you were doing some hard training to justify those mega calories.

btw - on this 5,500 calorie a day " keto bulk " diet you did....

- what % of the 5,500 calories came from fat ?

- what % of the 5,500 calories came from protien ?​

Yes I bulked on keto, I started at a weight of 156 pounds, yes.

I was training 4 days per week on an upper/lower split 1.5 hours each time.

The reason I was eating that many calories is because without carbs it's really hard to grow!, I started around 4,000 and just couldn't gain a pound so I just kept eating more until I finally took it up to 5,500, and started slowly gaining.

My protein and fat varied.

Sometimes it was up to 70% fat, sometimes it was down to around 55% fat

Sometimes protein was 25%, sometimes it was around 30%, sometimes a bit higher.

Here is a sample day from back then:

Total: 5273
Fat: 416 3746 71%
Sat: 128 1148 22%
Poly: 66 598 11%
Mono: 61 545 10%
Carbs: 108 278 5%
Fiber: 38 0 0%
Protein: 311 1244 24%
Alcohol: 0 0 0%

And another:

Total: 5429
Fat: 382 3437 64%
Sat: 117 1053 20%
Poly: 34 304 6%
Mono: 85 768 14%
Carbs: 122 358 7%
Fiber: 32 0 0%
Protein: 399 1594 30%
Alcohol: 0 0 0%

 

[Wrangell]

Yes I bulked on keto, I started at a weight of 156 pounds, yes.

I was training 4 days per week on an upper/lower split 1.5 hours each time.

The reason I was eating that many calories is because without carbs it's really hard to grow!, I started around 4,000 and just couldn't gain a pound so I just kept eating more until I finally took it up to 5,500, and started slowly gaining.

62% fat
31% protein

on a 2 week average.......

So, ' about ' ( depending on the day ) ...

- 3,400 fat calories ( 377 grams )

- 1,700 protein calories ( 425 grams )

- 400 carb calories ( 100 grams )​

...each day. Impressive.

I would think it wasn't very easy to pack in those 377 grams of fat a day....well done !

And getting back to the whole glycogen depletion issue, I would think that doing 1.5 hours of intense weight training on those days must have drawn pretty heavily on those 400 calories of carbs you were consuming a day...ensuring your glycogen stores would remained chronically very low levels in the process ( even at 70 - 100 carb grams a day )

Any cardio at all during this " keto bulk " ?

 

[realworksuks]

So, ' about ' ( depending on the day ) ...

- 3,400 fat calories ( 377 grams )

- 1,700 protein calories ( 425 grams )

- 400 carb calories ( 100 grams )​

...each day. Impressive.

I would think it wasn't very easy to pack in those 377 grams of fat a day....well done !

And getting back to the whole glycogen depletion issue, I would think that doing 1.5 hours of intense weight training on those days must have drawn pretty heavily on those 400 calories of carbs you were consuming a day...ensuring your glycogen stores would remained chronically very low levels in the process ( even at 70 - 100 carb grams a day )

Any cardio at all during this " keto bulk " ?

It actually wasn't hard eating all that fat per day, in fact I loved it, and I was always hungry for the food, wasn't stuffing myself. Made my own flaxseed bread, ate tons of hamburgers on it, and besides that lots of delicious steak, pork, full fat cottage cheese, eggs, and etc. it was great.

The entire keto phase both cutting and bulking were highly experimental, I just wanted to see how they worked in both respects, and I learned a lot.


About the glycogen, as I stated earlier, a normal person maintains approximately 110 mmol of glycogen, and person in a consistent state of ketosis maintains 70 mmol.

During the keto cut I was in ketosis for a lot of the time, but during the bulk I wasn't.

So I had between those two, 70mmol and 110 mmols.


As far as cardio went I paced around my apartment some nights while watching tv just for some type of activity... but no, no serious cardio.

 

[Chillen]

As far as cardio went I paced around my apartment some nights while watching tv just for some type of activity... but no, no serious cardio.

:yelrotflmao:

I know the feeling, he, he. I get a great cardio workout moving the mouth and fingers when I am playing my sons in one of our lan gaming parties with their friends.


Best wishes


Chillen

 

[realworksuks]

:yelrotflmao:

I know the feeling, he, he. I get a great cardio workout moving the mouth and fingers when I am playing my sons in one of our lan gaming parties with their friends.


Best wishes


Chillen

Haha, yeah, my only cardio now is getting up to eat or go to the bathroom :yelrotflmao:

 

[matt182]

100mmols? i though april fools day had already passed?

Muscle can store up to 500-1000g of glycogen.

 

[Wrangell]

It actually wasn't hard eating all that fat per day, in fact I loved it, and I was always hungry for the food, wasn't stuffing myself. Made my own flaxseed bread, ate tons of hamburgers on it, and besides that lots of delicious steak, pork, full fat cottage cheese, eggs, and etc. it was great.

Good for you.

The entire keto phase both cutting and bulking were highly experimental, I just wanted to see how they worked in both respects, and I learned a lot.

Again, good for you.

About the glycogen, as I stated earlier, a normal person maintains approximately 110 mmol of glycogen, and person in a consistent state of ketosis maintains 70 mmol.

And what is the mmol / kg of glycogen for someone who engages in intense anaerobic weight training for 1.5 hours per session ...as you did during your " keto bulk " while consuming only 70 - 100 grams of carbs a day ?

And how many GRAMS of glycogen would you say your muscles had in total - if you had to guess - after consuming only 400 carb calories a day and burning perhaps 400+ calories after one of your 1.5 hour workouts ?

btw - how many ' totals sets ' would you say you averaged over the course of 1 session of 1.5 hours of weight training ?

During the keto cut I was in ketosis for a lot of the time, but during the bulk I wasn't.

Then why do you call it a " keto bulk " if you were not in ketosis while bulking ?

What does the " keto " in " keto bulk " actually represent then ?

So I had between those two, 70mmol and 110 mmols.

Really ?

How did you measure the mmol / kg of glycogen in your own muscles to arrive at a number between 70 and 110 - what was your actual number ?

As far as cardio went I paced around my apartment some nights while watching tv just for some type of activity... but no, no serious cardio.

In other words you did " 0 " cardio training - got it.

 

[realworksuks]

Good for you.



Again, good for you.



And what is the mmol / kg of glycogen for someone who engages in intense anaerobic weight training for 1.5 hours per session ...as you did during your " keto bulk " while consuming only 70 - 100 grams of carbs a day ?

And how many GRAMS of glycogen would you say your muscles had in total - if you had to guess - after consuming only 400 carb calories a day and burning perhaps 400+ calories after one of your 1.5 hour workouts ?

btw - how many ' totals sets ' would you say you averaged over the course of 1 session of 1.5 hours of weight training ?



Then why do you call it a " keto bulk " if you were not in ketosis while bulking ?

What does the " keto " in " keto bulk " actually represent then ?



Really ?

How did you measure the mmol / kg of glycogen in your own muscles to arrive at a number between 70 and 110 - what was your actual number ?




In other words you did " 0 " cardio training - got it.

Your just being an asshole now.

Go read the book "the ketogenic diet"

Because all I am doing is just spitting out all the facts from that book.

 

[matt182]

id love to read that book

 

[Karky]

Wrangell, you know very well no one can answer those questions. If you don't, here's the deal. The body is not black and white. there is no way of calculating what you are asking about without some very sophisticated measuring equipment.

 

[Wrangell]

Your just being an asshole now.

Smarten up .....there is no need for personal attacks.

If you don't know the answer to some simple questions about a diet you claim to have read about, done and have a good working knowledge of - then simply say you don't know the answer.

Go read the book "the ketogenic diet"

I don't have the book....and I don't feel like wasting my money on ' extreme ' diet books I will never follow.