Sport is an insulin spike still necessary post workout when cutting?

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realworksuks

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I read that having a spike in insulin post workout is important when bulking so that the protein will rush into your muscles? Is this right?

Well, since you can't gain any muscle while cutting. Do you still need to have these extra calories after a workout to spike insulin?

If you do... what is the least calorie way to do it?
 
Imo this whole "can't gain muscle while cutting" is wrong.

The way I see it, you won't gain muscle unless the body thinks it has plenty of nutrients leftover. This can easily change over the day, even if you're cutting. It's just like with fat, sure you won't (or shouldn't) gain fat on a cut, but if eat a real big cheat meal, isn't some of that going into fat stores?

Postworkout is your best chance to build muscle, even though you're cutting, get a regular PWO meal to help recovery and prevent muscle loss, and maybe even build some muscle (which will get metabolized later probably, but a smaller net loss is good). If you don't, you're going to see unnecessary muscle loss on your cut.

You also need the carbs to replenish glucogen stores. I don't think there's any low calorie way to do it, and no point either. You want good glucogen stores so you can continue to do great workouts.

I'm no expert on this, but it's worked out fine for me (30g protein and 50-70g carbs). I never tried a long cut, if your muscles get low insulin sensitivity or something that might change, but I'm just quoting other people on that :)
 
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realworksuks said:
I read that having a spike in insulin post workout is important when bulking so that the protein will rush into your muscles? Is this right?

Well, since you can't gain any muscle while cutting. Do you still need to have these extra calories after a workout to spike insulin?

If you do... what is the least calorie way to do it?
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Why does PWO nutrition have to be considered ' extra ' calories in the first place?

If you have a target daily calorie level you want to use for ' cutting ', ensure your PWO is a mandatory part of that target daily calorie level and make then simply make adjustments to some of the other 4-5 meals you have per day to make sure you don't exceed that target.
 
Derwyddon said:
Nicolasd - when building muscle you need to have more than just a momentary calorie surplus. If it worked this way, why wouldn't we just eat giant meals after working out and then little meals all the other times and have the perfect body?

Your body needs the nutrients and calories to build the muscle, but to burn fat it needs less of the exact thing bulking needs. It is a true a beginner can ocassionally do both but the biomechanics here are different.

You said yourself that you've never done a long cut, so I'm not sure where your opinion comes from.
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You're reading a lot into my post that isn't there. I never said to eat a giant meal, I said he shouldn't drop carbs from his PWO meal, which was what he was asking about. This is where your body needs the nutrients the most, and providing it will help recovery and let you retain more muscle during the cut.

The OP had the imo wrong assumption that you can't build any muscle at any time on a cut. By simple reasoining, if you couldn't build muscle during a cut, there wouldn't be any point to a PWO meal. But after workout, you've torn some muscle tissue, that needs to be rebuild, which takes protein and insulin. Perhaps you have a chance to add a bit more too. Sure, you're going to see muscle breakdown during the rest of the day because you're eating little so you go catabolic, and the net result will probably be less muscle, but still much better than not getting a proper PWO meal (including carbs for the insulin).

That's my take on it. If you don't think muscle tissue can be build during a cut, what exactly is it you think a PWO meal is good for?

My opinion comes from experience with short cuts, I've never had large amounts of fat I needed to shed. For all you and I know that might be the situation the OP is in too. If he's doing a long cut, then my take on it might not be relevant, as I pointed out.
 
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Nicolasd said:
The OP had the imo wrong assumption that you can't build any muscle at any time on a cut. By simple reasoining, if you couldn't build muscle during a cut, there wouldn't be any point to a PWO meal.
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Although, muscle / maintenance growth goals aside for the moment, promoting an enhanced rate of glycogen replacement might be another reason unto itself for taking a PWO meal immediately after a workout.

Nicolasd said:
But after workout, you've torn some muscle tissue, that needs to be rebuild, which takes protein and insulin. Perhaps you have a chance to add a bit more too. Sure, you're going to see muscle breakdown during the rest of the day because you're eating little so you go catabolic, and the net result will probably be less muscle, but still much better than not getting a proper PWO meal (including carbs for the insulin).

That's my take on it. If you don't think muscle tissue can be build during a cut, what exactly is it you think a PWO meal is good for?
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I suppose it depends on how hard and how often someone trains and how one's nutrition and eating habits ( i.e grams of protein, timing etc. ) unfold throughout the day.

Either way, since weight training is primarily and anaerobic activity, protien metabolism aside, having adequate glycogen stores are vital to ensure you have enough energy to train hard - and often ( if that is relevant )
 
ok, so I need to get the extra carbs with my protein shake post workout. What are some good ways to do this? someone said dextrose or maltodextrose.. what does that mean? (if you google it you don't get definitions or examples you just get articles that assume you already know, so don't say google it).

What about a protein shake with a single banana in it? How much carbs do you need? please help.
 
I completely agree on the glucogen.

That wasn't the point I was trying to get across though, so it slipped out of the argument. Replaced "a PWO meal" to "having proteins in your PWO meal" in my post above fixes it.
 
realworksuks said:
ok, so I need to get the extra carbs with my protein shake post workout. What are some good ways to do this? someone said dextrose or maltodextrose.. what does that mean? (if you google it you don't get definitions or examples you just get articles that assume you already know, so don't say google it).

What about a protein shake with a single banana in it? How much carbs do you need? please help.
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Dextrose and maltodextrose are just forms of carbs, both enter the bloodstream very quickly so they're good for this purpose.

I think 50g is a good amount. AFAIK your muscles will take 25-30g of that after a hard workout, so that's the bare minimum, but getting the same amount for the liver store is good too. Liver glucogen will get released into the bloodstream later and so might "hurt" your cut a bit, but I don't think there's any reason to try to deplete your liver glucogen stores since it'll reduce its ability to hold glucogen. Better to reduce the next meals a bit to compensate.
 
realworksuks said:
Can you give some examples? How do you know which carbs are those types?
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You just need anything with a high glycemic index, you can look foods up here Bodybuilding.com - Searchable Glycemic Index!

If you don't want to just eat dextrose from a bucket, then you're looking for all the stuff you're normally not supposed to eat, like white bread, muffins, refined sugars, etc. If it's white, sweet, and easy to chew, it's probably got a high GI :)
 
thanks for the link. I saw that white rice had a very high GI. It's not ok to wait 20 minutes after the workout to make it though is it?

I see that banana's have a GI of about 50. Is this sufficient? I'd like to have something with some kind of nutritional value in it if I have to have an insulin spike. How many carbs did you say is good? I have 21 grams of protein post workout if it matters.
 
realworksuks said:
thanks for the link. I saw that white rice had a very high GI. It's not ok to wait 20 minutes after the workout to make it though is it?
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It's O.K. ... just not ' optimal ' according to some...in which some define ' optimal ' as being immediately after a work out.

Then again, it depends what study you read, some say your ' window ' is anywhere from within 20 minutes to within 1 hour.

Either way, I wouldn't worry much about it.:)

realworksuks said:
I see that banana's have a GI of about 50. Is this sufficient? .
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I'm going on memory but I think a GI score of 70 ( and higher ) is what's considered a high GI score .........and a GI score of about 55 and below is considered as low.

Some other ideas for 'HI GI " foods if a shake isn't handy.......

- jellybeans
- plain bagel
- Rice Chex / Cheerios
- graham crackers
- Skittles
- pretzels

realworksuks said:
I'd like to have something with some kind of nutritional value in it if I have to have an insulin spike. How many carbs did you say is good? I have 21 grams of protein post workout if it matters.
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Depends.

Suggestions I've seen, range from a carb/protien ratio of 2:1 ...to 4:1.
 
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Nicolasd said:
Dextrose and maltodextrose are just forms of carbs, both enter the bloodstream very quickly so they're good for this purpose.

I think 50g is a good amount. AFAIK your muscles will take 25-30g of that after a hard workout, so that's the bare minimum, but getting the same amount for the liver store is good too. Liver glucogen will get released into the bloodstream later and so might "hurt" your cut a bit, but I don't think there's any reason to try to deplete your liver glucogen stores since it'll reduce its ability to hold glucogen. Better to reduce the next meals a bit to compensate.
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Not that much made sense, but just for clarity its glycogen not glucogen.
 
I think it will make me more motivated to know why we need this insulin spike. Can someone explain why it's optimal to spike our insulin post workout?
 
The way I see it, insulin is the hormone that signals that the body has plenty of nutrients, so it's ok for the muscles (and fat) to take some of the nutrients and grow.
 
realworksuks said:
should we also have some kind of insulin spike in our post post workout meal??

like a potato or white rice for instance?
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Never did that myself or heard anyone suggest that, not even when bulking. High insulin levels also increase fat storage, and imo except for PWO an insulin spike will just mean more fat stored without any benefit to your muscle buildup. If you can, eat high GI foods only after workout, and go with low GI stuff the rest of the time.

I'm not always that disciplined with sticking to low GI, but when bulking I've certainly noticed less fat build-up when I do.
 
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