I'm quite confused...need some harsh truth!

[Steve]

After you read what I wrote up there, read this:
No, you wont lose more weight by adding weight exercises to your training...
It's perfectly healthy just to do cardio...
It's healthy to do weights... but it wont help you losing way.
It even can make you gain weight! Muscle weighs more than fat!
Don't get fooled by your weight... there is a machine that sees your fat mass and muscle mass... you should follow that machine.
For example... your weight may increase... and you think you are fatter... but you could have lose fat and gain muscle and then, you have more weight but you are less fat!
So, resuming:
Cardio burns fat and makes you lose weight
Weights works your muscles and do nothing about the fat
It's good to do weights to tonificate your body while you're losing fat with cardio (many people lose weight but get flacide).
If you decide to do both things one next to the other... it's better to do first the weights to consume the sugar in your blood because when you turn to cardio you will start to consume fat much faster!

Haha, I think you and I are going to have some fun. So, would your advice to somone who has a main goal of fat loss be cardio only, and no resistance training?

 

[Polka]

You will lose musle if you eat a caloric deficit and NOT supplement this with weight training. Your body makes up for an energy deficit by catabolizing tissue. This includes fat AND muscle.

By lifting, properly I might add, it will send the right biochemical signaling muscle maintenance.

I saw another of your posts and it seems that you are hung up on the idea that fat loss occurs DURING exercise. Like, steady state cardio is the most optimal weapon in our arsenals to use for weight loss.

What if I told you this. Cardiovascular conditioning aside, if I could pick only one exercise for weight loss, it would be weight training.

Why?

1. Muscle maintenance

2. There is some cardiovascular conditioning involved with weight training.

3. Fat oxidation is NOT the key to weight loss. Total energy expenditure during the day is key. Steady state cardio does little to raise EPOC. A high intensity bout of resistance training does amazing things to EPOC.

Yes, when body needs energy first go to muscles and then to fat. Whatever the exercise is!
But we have to separate cases... One thing is a person who cares about developing his/her muscles, another is a person who wants to lose weight without losing much muscle...
Anaerobic exercise can't make you burn fat in a large scale...

And yes... fat oxidation is the key! I don't know any other biological way to use body fat!
If you expend more energy than you get in a day, you will start burning fat! I mean... that's the objective!

EPOC itself won't make her burn as many calories as she would burn in an aerobic exercise...
So... we really could agree that the best is making both because I didn't said I was agaisnt weights, I said it was good to keep the body tonificated... but I can't agree with you when you say anaerobic exercise would make her lose more weight than aerobic...

 

[Polka]

So, are you saying that even if you are in an energy deficit, eating the wrong foods can make you gain weight?

Of course!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It is not on the quantity of calories... it is on the quality of them!
People must know that our body is not a calories calculator...
If someone eats integral bread even if this has more calories than white bread, will have a better result because white bread is absorved very fast making insuline say to other hormones: "hey! there's too much sugar on the blood, take it and turn it into fat!"
Integral bread is absorved slowly... piece by piece... there will be no so much sugar on the blood, it makes your metabolism run faster, and the absorved sugar is used in body needs, not being converted into fat... And you wont be hunger so shortly...
Of course this is child talking so every people can understand what I say, but if you want to, I can write the really cientific boring explanations...

So the best it too reduce the amount of calories AND choose good food...
Everyone knows that an unhealthy diet even if it is calories low won't help...

 

[Polka]

Haha, I think you and I are going to have some fun. So, would your advice to somone who has a main goal of fat loss be cardio only, and no resistance training?

No! I was just answering to some sentences, don't take the wrong idea!
Good diet + aerobic + anaerobic...
I hate a slim flacide body...

 

[Steve]

Yes, when body needs energy first go to muscles and then to fat. Whatever the exercise is!
But we have to separate cases... One thing is a person who cares about developing his/her muscles, another is a person who wants to lose weight without losing much muscle...
Anaerobic exercise can't make you burn fat in a large scale...

And yes... fat oxidation is the key! I don't know any other biological way to use body fat!
If you expend more energy than you get in a day, you will start burning fat! I mean... that's the objective!

EPOC itself won't make her burn as many calories as she would burn in an aerobic exercise...
So... we really could agree that the best is making both because I didn't said I was agaisnt weights, I said it was good to keep the body tonificated... but I can't agree with you when you say anaerobic exercise would make her lose more weight than aerobic...

No, fat oxidation DURING exercise is what I said. Don't misread me. Of course fat oxidation is key for weight loss. But your opinion on what is an optimal approach to get there and my opinion are drastically different. During steady state cardio at a moderate intensity, 63% of VO2 max I believe is the proven number to utilize the most fat oxidation, sure, you are using mostly fat here as fuel.

Now let's take something more similar to cardio, and use high intensity interval training. Still running, just anaerobically. Now fat is not the primary fuel. However, the energy expenditure in a 24 hour period is great when you factor in EPOC. So what gets you the better results I ask you?

A) Performing an exercise that is fueled primarily by fat (your steady state cardio)

B) Performing an exercise that is fueled by a combo of glycogen system, phosphagen system, and fat oxidation, which may not burn as much fat DURING exercise, but when given the total energy expenditure in a given day, more calories are burned in this scenario. (HIIT or something else high intensity, mine)

Let's face it, total energy expenditure is what matters most. Not when fat oxidation occurs. You seem to be making little distinction between during-exercise fat oxidation, recovery period fat oxidation, total fat oxidation by the end of a 24-hr period, and most importantly, a longer term of several weeks.

You will not get an argument out of me (mind you, I am not arguing, simply debating) that more fat is utilized DURING moderate intensity steady state aerobics opposed to something of higher intensity such as HIIT and certain resistance trainings. However, if you start claiming that this is optimal for weight loss, I really beg to differ. And ask why? Why, in your opinion, is fat oxidation during exercise the key variable in weight loss opposed to total fat oxidation?

ETA: You may have misunderstood me, I did say fat oxidation does not matter in my original post, but followed it by total energy expenditure is what matters. I thought you would assume I meant total energy expenditure as in total fat oxidation.... my apologies.

 

[Steve]

Of course!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It is not on the quantity of calories... it is on the quality of them!
People must know that our body is not a calories calculator...
If someone eats integral bread even if this has more calories than white bread, will have a better result because white bread is absorved very fast making insuline say to other hormones: "hey! there's too much sugar on the blood, take it and turn it into fat!"
Integral bread is absorved slowly... piece by piece... there will be no so much sugar on the blood, it makes your metabolism run faster, and the absorved sugar is used in body needs, not being converted into fat... And you wont be hunger so shortly...
Of course this is child talking so every people can understand what I say, but if you want to, I can write the really cientific boring explanations...

So the best it too reduce the amount of calories AND choose good food...
Everyone knows that an unhealthy diet even if it is calories low won't help...

Ahhh, now you have to be careful with what you are saying. I asked, "do you believe you can gain weight even if you are in a calorie deficit by simply eating the wrong foods." I DID NOT ask if you would gain fat. Weight is the key word.

I suggest you read the first law of thermodynamics.

The change in the internal energy of a closed thermodynamic system is equal to the sum of the amount of heat energy supplied to the system and the work done on the system.

In a nutshell, you can't create nor destroy energy, it can only change form

Basically, all calories going into the system (via food) have to be accounted on the other end (stored, used for energy production, dissipated as heat, excreted in your feces).

So if you are in an energy surplus, those extra calories have to go somewhere. Dissipated as heat (neat), lost in feces, stored as body tissue (fat, muscle).

If you're in a deficit, those calories have to come from somewhere (pulled out of storage, or the body can adapt by lowering metabolic rate to alter the deficit).

The body does not actually "count" calories as you like to put it. Our minds do that. But our bodies certainly abide by the law of thermodynamics.

 

[Steve]

No! I was just answering to some sentences, don't take the wrong idea!
Good diet + aerobic + anaerobic...
I hate a slim flacide body...

Oh, I CERTAINLY did not "take the wrong idea." I know exactly what I am debating.

And this I can agree with. A plan of attack that includes proper nutrition, aerobic and anaerobic work will work in synergy better than any one variable alone.

 

[Polka]

Ahhh, now you have to be careful with what you are saying. I asked, "do you believe you can gain weight even if you are in a calorie deficit by simply eating the wrong foods." I DID NOT ask if you would gain fat. Weight is the key word.

I suggest you read the first law of thermodynamics.

The change in the internal energy of a closed thermodynamic system is equal to the sum of the amount of heat energy supplied to the system and the work done on the system.

In a nutshell, you can't create nor destroy energy, it can only change form

Basically, all calories going into the system (via food) have to be accounted on the other end (stored, used for energy production, dissipated as heat, excreted in your feces).

So if you are in an energy surplus, those extra calories have to go somewhere. Dissipated as heat (neat), lost in feces, stored as body tissue (fat, muscle).

If you're in a deficit, those calories have to come from somewhere (pulled out of storage, or the body can adapt by lowering metabolic rate to alter the deficit).

The body does not actually "count" calories as you like to put it. Our minds do that. But our bodies certainly abide by the law of thermodynamics.

I had physics in college... What I don't understand is how does this go agaisnt to what I said?
I suppose we are having a communication problem here, may be I'm not able enough to express myself in english... because you're discussing things with me that you think I'm agaisnt to.. and I'm not, I agree with you in the major things... so... I don't know...
And what do you mean with : " Weight is the key word."?
When people say they want to lose weight I consider that they want to lose fat, their fat weight... So I don't understand one more time want you are trying to say...

 

[Steve]

I had physics in college... What I don't understand is how does this go agaisnt to what I said?
I suppose we are having a communication problem here, may be I'm not able enough to express myself in english... because you're discussing things with me that you think I'm agaisnt to.. and I'm not, I agree with you in the major things... so... I don't know...
And what do you mean with : " Weight is the key word."?
When people say they want to lose weight I consider that they want to lose fat, their fat weight... So I don't understand one more time want you are trying to say...

I asked if you could gain weight. You said of course.

But forget it. Really.

I think you are putting a little too much emphasis on the effect that "clean" food has on physique. In all honesty, based on empirical evidence, and I have worked with a lot of people, once you account for adequate protein and EFA consumption, it doesn't make a whole heck of a lot of difference where your cals come from relative to physique improvement and recomposition.

Don't isolate the insulin response as a huge downfall as it can be extremely anabolic when eaten with the right food combos. As well, you and I both know (at least I hope you know) that when consuming high GI carbs combined with other foods that are fat and protein containing, the GI or II, whichever you want to look at, is reduced.

Very few people who eat balanced meals eat high GI carbs alone.

This said, we are bickering over semantics. I agree, a diet composed of whole grains, non-refined foods is better for you any day of the week.

 

[Polka]

No, fat oxidation DURING exercise is what I said. Don't misread me. Of course fat oxidation is key for weight loss. But your opinion on what is an optimal approach to get there and my opinion are drastically different. During steady state cardio at a moderate intensity, 63% of VO2 max I believe is the proven number to utilize the most fat oxidation, sure, you are using mostly fat here as fuel.

Now let's take something more similar to cardio, and use high intensity interval training. Still running, just anaerobically. Now fat is not the primary fuel. However, the energy expenditure in a 24 hour period is great when you factor in EPOC. So what gets you the better results I ask you?

A) Performing an exercise that is fueled primarily by fat (your steady state cardio)

B) Performing an exercise that is fueled by a combo of glycogen system, phosphagen system, and fat oxidation, which may not burn as much fat DURING exercise, but when given the total energy expenditure in a given day, more calories are burned in this scenario. (HIIT or something else high intensity, mine)

Let's face it, total energy expenditure is what matters most. Not when fat oxidation occurs. You seem to be making little distinction between during-exercise fat oxidation, recovery period fat oxidation, total fat oxidation by the end of a 24-hr period, and most importantly, a longer term of several weeks.

You will not get an argument out of me (mind you, I am not arguing, simply debating) that more fat is utilized DURING moderate intensity steady state aerobics opposed to something of higher intensity such as HIIT and certain resistance trainings. However, if you start claiming that this is optimal for weight loss, I really beg to differ. And ask why? Why, in your opinion, is fat oxidation during exercise the key variable in weight loss opposed to total fat oxidation?

ETA: You may have misunderstood me, I did say fat oxidation does not matter in my original post, but followed it by total energy expenditure is what matters. I thought you would assume I meant total energy expenditure as in total fat oxidation.... my apologies.

Lets say it this way:
Aerobic exercise = large consume of calories = body needs calories during exercise or the rest of the day or wtv = fat oxidation... I'm not saying WHEN it happens...
It occures all the day but it occures too during the exercise... it is during the exercise that you will mostly estimulate fat oxidation... because it is when you have low energy and need a lot of it..

I don't know what are the numbers to EPOC, you could provide them so we could do some comparisons... Because I really believe (and with that I mean I could be wrong) that calories consuption during aerobic exercise is higher then all the calories consuption during anaerobic plus EPOC.

I'm not making any distiction, I'm sorry if I made you believe I was saying so... I'm talking about what stimulates it more.

 

[Polka]

I asked if you could gain weight. You said of course.

But forget it. Really.

I think you are putting a little too much emphasis on the effect that "clean" food has on physique. In all honesty, based on empirical evidence, and I have worked with a lot of people, once you account for adequate protein and EFA consumption, it doesn't make a whole heck of a lot of difference where your cals come from relative to physique improvement and recomposition.

Don't isolate the insulin response as a huge downfall as it can be extremely anabolic when eaten with the right food combos. As well, you and I both know (at least I hope you know) that when consuming high GI carbs combined with other foods that are fat and protein containing, the GI or II, whichever you want to look at, is reduced.

Very few people who eat balanced meals eat high GI carbs alone.

This said, we are bickering over semantics. I agree, a diet composed of whole grains, non-refined foods is better for you any day of the week.

I put emphasis on health... it makes a lot of diference when you're talking about an healthy body today and an healthy body for life... That diference can mean cancer or any other disease provoked by bad food... So you can say to someone it is ok to eat somethings, but my job is to tell people what they must eat and do to be healthy... for example, I don't see many people worried about the toxins produced by exercise...
Insulin was an example... Digestion, absorption and use... they are VERY complex... I'm not isolating anything cause there's no isolation that can be made when we're talking about human body...

 

[Steve]

Lets say it this way:
Aerobic exercise = large consume of calories = body needs calories during exercise or the rest of the day or wtv = fat oxidation... I'm not saying WHEN it happens...
It occures all the day but it occures too during the exercise... it is during the exercise that you will mostly estimulate fat oxidation... because it is when you have low energy and need a lot of it..

I don't know what are the numbers to EPOC, you could provide them so we could do some comparisons... Because I really believe (and with that I mean I could be wrong) that calories consuption during aerobic exercise is higher then all the calories consuption during anaerobic plus EPOC.

I'm not making any distiction, I'm sorry if I made you believe I was saying so... I'm talking about what stimulates it more.

Now we are getting somewhere.

In all actuality, I am debating for the sake of debating. Why? I will be truthful. It seemed as if you were "preaching" the bible about what is right or wrong. I don't think that is the case, so let me say this....

In the studies I have seen, and I have looked at a lot, fat oxidation DURING moderate intensity exercise far outweighs fat oxidation DURING high intensity exercise.

On the flip-side, post exercise fat oxidation using high intensity exercise far outweighs post exercise fat oxidation using moderate to low intensity exercise when using a 24 hour scale.

Bottom line, it is really a net wash in terms of fat oxidation when you take into account 24-hr periods, as much as I'd like it to be skewed to the high intensity side.

BUT.

When tested for body recomposition changes using longer time frames (weeks+), high intensity not only maintained LBM, in many cases, it actually increased LBM.

Also, fat oxidation was higher when longer time frames were taken into account.

Adversely, low to moderate intensity exercise actually showed a decrease in LBM over time and a lesser degree of fat oxidation.

This is why high intensity exercise is thrown into any recommendation out there that is valid IMO.

Add resistance training into the mix (properly) and you have a sure fire way of maintaining as much muscle as possible, even while in a caloric deficit.

Based on the posts I have seen you make, it seems as if you would recommend moderate intensity exercise mostly to an individual looking to lose weight. That is fine and dandy if weight loss is your only concern. But if you are looking to lose the most fat, while, at the same time, maintaining as much LBM as possible, you better believe that higher intensity exercises is where you will find these results.

If you want studies, you will have to wait until I get home. I know I have some saved on my home computer some place. Besides from the hard facts, which again, I will have to dig up when I get home, I have witnessed this first hand with my clients time and time again.

I know trainers who don't buy into the high intensity bout. These are usually the same morons that still buy into the concept that high rep weight training "tones" muscle. I used to watch my clients, time and time again, trump the recomposition changes relative to the clients of these other idiot trainers who were having their clients do hours and hours of steady state moderate intensity aerobic exercise week in and week out.

 

[Steve]

I put emphasis on health... it makes a lot of diference when you're talking about an healthy body today and an healthy body for life... That diference can mean cancer or any other disease provoked by bad food... So you can say to someone it is ok to eat somethings, but my job is to tell people what they must eat and do to be healthy... for example, I don't see many people worried about the toxins produced by exercise...
Insulin was an example... Digestion, absorption and use... they are VERY complex... I'm not isolating anything cause there's no isolation that can be made when we're talking about human body...

You don't say.

 

[Maggie44]

This has been a very interesting thread, thank you Steve and Polka!

Can I barge in and get your 2 cents... both of you

I want to slim down and lose some body fat. Somehow in the last couple years I've gotten a gut and I hate it! I've gained 10 lbs in the last year I am 5ft 4 and weigh 135.... I want to be 120. I'm not a big boned person. I am 44 years old.

I got an eliptical machine and have worked my way up to 30 mins. It has taken me almost 4 weeks to get to 30 minutes. I am sweating when I get off the machine and my legs FEEL IT so I am getting a work out. I have been pretty good about doing this nearly every day... but like I said, I had to work up to 30 minutes, so I've only been doing 30 minutes straight for about 11-12 days.

I weighed myself today and the scale has not moved!!

My diet is pretty good. I like lean meats, lean dairy, I don't consume a lot of carbs, no junk, but I do consume alcohol calories and carbs in beer on a regular basis. I cook veggies and meat in olive oil and also eat frut sometimes. Yesterday I had a snack of a bannana and some peanut butter with skim milk. I count calories in gerneral terms and stay in the 1800 range for the most part.

Any suggestions? If I keep up with this will I see results, or do I need to do more? I wasn't exercising at all before. Lifestyle was/is fairly active, but I wasn't working out at all. To be honest, I think the eliptical is hard! I could walk all day. This thing kicks my butt. I really don't have the time or desire for a gym membership (that's why I got the eliptical).

Any advice would be appreciated

 

[Jsforever]

heres an article I found on the weight loss website I'm at called spark people.. on why we need strength training....I thought this was vary helpful.. After I read this I now do weights 3 times a week.. Sorry this is soo long.

Why Strength Training is a Must for Everyone
Strength Becomes More Important with Age
-- By Jen Mueller, Certified Personal Trainer


Think you’re too old to start a strength training program? Well think again! Strength training is just what older bodies, even very old or frail ones, need to fight the loss of muscle and bone mass and strength.

Does the idea of strength training seem like something reserved for youngsters lifting several tons of weight? Well, it shouldn’t! Everyone, no matter how young or old, should be doing some kind of regular strength training. This could be at the gym, or at home using very little equipment. Resistance bands and balls, small hand weights, water and even your own body weight can be used as resistance when designing a strength training program.

So what’s the point? If you’ve never participated in a strength training program, why start now? Here are some very important reasons strength training makes a difference in your quality of life:

* Improves your ability to do everyday activities: The stronger your muscles, the easier it is to get groceries out of the car, get a package off of the top cabinet shelf, push the lawnmower…..the list goes on and on!
* Improves your balance and stability: The stronger and more resilient your muscles, the more balance is sturdier. This will help keep you safe in your daily activities and decreases the risk of falls or accidents.
* Builds muscle strength: Adults lose between five and seven pounds of muscle every decade after age 20. Strength training will help prevent this muscle loss, and rebuild what you may have lost.
* Decreases your risk of osteoporosis: Inactivity and aging can lead to a decrease in bone density, leading to brittleness. Studies have shown that consistent strength training can increase bone density and prevent osteoporosis.
* Reduces blood pressure: Strength training can be beneficial for the prevention and treatment of high blood pressure by strengthening the heart, allowing it to beat more efficiently.
* Increases calorie burn: Strength training increases the body's metabolic rate, causing the body to burn more calories throughout the day. This aids significantly in long term weight loss.
* Reduces low back pain: Research has shown that strength training can increase low back strength and alleviate low back pain.

Time spent on strength training can literally help you turn back the clock and feel younger each day. Here are some principles to remember when putting together a program:

* Start by strength training 2 days/week, building up to 3 days/week for more of a challenge. Make sure you have at least one day of rest in between each session.
* Start with 2-3 exercises each for lower body and upper body and 1-2 core exercises (abs, lower back). Examples of exercises can be found in the Fitness Resource Center.
* Start with one set of each exercise (12-15 repetitions- slow and steady), using light hand weights, resistance bands or your own body weight. As you progress, you can work up to 2 and then 3 sets.
* As you add additional sets, rest 30 seconds to a minute in between each one.
* Never hold your breath during the exercises. Always exhale when exerting force (on the hard part of the movement).
* Always warm up before and stretch before and after each session.
* Pay attention to proper form and technique, as they are very important for injury prevention and producing results.
* When selecting a weight, it should be heavy enough that you feel the muscle working and the difficulty increasing as you get to the 15th repetition. The weight should be light enough that you can do 15 repetitions without pain or breaking proper form.
* Strength training should never be painful! If you experience pain, stop the exercise immediately.

If you’re in the 50+ age group, you have a lot to gain from regular strength training. Just remember to consult your doctor before starting any exercise program. It is one of the most important things you can do to ensure your independence for many years to come.

 

[Risty]

I must say this is one of the most interesting and informative threads. Thanks for the debate!