Free weights versus machines?

devildog28 said:
It takes minimal effort to unrack a bar and if you can't do it on your own then you most definatly won't be able to push it all the way up from a lowered position.
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^^^Original quote that I was referring to.^^^

Karky said:
Has anyone actually said that world class powerlifters shouldn't get a lift-off in competition?
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Karky- with my numbers, I would consider myself to have been world-class. The post above refers to a universal "you," which would include powerlifters, world-class and otherwise.

devildog28 said:
No what's absurd is you didn't read my original post thoroughly. The power lifters are what maybe 1% of the total gym population and are 99% of the time on heavy cycles of steroids?
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Again, the above post references a "you" without making any specifics. When you paint with such broad strokes, trying to include everyone in an argument that is not inclusive, you are wrong, much the same way that you are wrong about "99%" of powerlifters being on steroids. That statement is both false, and insulting to those of us that are drug-free.
 
Everything seems like an arguement with you IWA. There is a way to state your opinion without directly belittling others POV, it's called a discussion.
 
How was my post belittling? Fitness is not a "one size fits all" type of thing. To make a blanket statement like "no one needs" or "everyone should" is silliness.
 
IWalkAlone said:
How was my post belittling? Fitness is not a "one size fits all" type of thing. To make a blanket statement like "no one needs" or "everyone should" is silliness.
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I didn't quote a post for a reason, it's a general observation. Also, "silliness" need not be followed by 'you're wrong' or 'that's absurd'.
 
So it's ok for posters to use foul language or insinuate that almost everyone who is a powerlifter is juicing, but I'm not allowed to day they're wrong or their statements are absurd? That seems like a bit of a double standard.
 
IWalkAlone said:
So it's ok for posters to use foul language or insinuate that almost everyone who is a powerlifter is juicing, but I'm not allowed to day they're wrong or their statements are absurd? That seems like a bit of a double standard.
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1. The person who was using foul language was banned.

2. The steroid comment was not directed at anyone specifically.

3. A double standard for two people based on what exactly? I like his user name better than yours?

No one is out to get you, please don't get the wrong idea.
 
Karky said:
No, I don't compete, never had. But this discussion was never really about competition benching, I'm talking about benching at the gym, no competition, just working out.
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Then tell us moar!

1. What is the purpose of a lift-off in the gym or comp? Who should get one (if one is necessary)? The million dollar question is also who gives a lift-off?
2. Ordinary people who train using bodybuilding programs sometimes do train to failure, sometimes on the last set. Should these ordinary people not get a spot or a lift-off? Many programs require you do to a certain number of reps and then add 5lbs next session. Are you saying spotters are irrelevant to users of such programs?
3. Devildog's assumptions are throwaway comments disguised as insults but clearly lacking real world justification. To claim 99% of powerlifters are on steroids is laughable and besides the point. Can he prove this and show us means-tested control data? He also does not understand the purpose of spotters or a lift-off in the bench.
 
jon16 said:
Then tell us moar!

1. What is the purpose of a lift-off in the gym or comp? Who should get one (if one is necessary)? The million dollar question is also who gives a lift-off?
2. Ordinary people who train using bodybuilding programs sometimes do train to failure, sometimes on the last set. Should these ordinary people not get a spot or a lift-off? Many programs require you do to a certain number of reps and then add 5lbs next session. Are you saying spotters are irrelevant to users of such programs?
3. Devildog's assumptions are throwaway comments disguised as insults but clearly lacking real world justification. To claim 99% of powerlifters are on steroids is laughable and besides the point. Can he prove this and show us means-tested control data? He also does not understand the purpose of spotters or a lift-off in the bench.
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Thank you! Someone who understands where I'm coming from!
 
jon16 said:
Then tell us moar!

1. What is the purpose of a lift-off in the gym or comp? Who should get one (if one is necessary)? The million dollar question is also who gives a lift-off?
2. Ordinary people who train using bodybuilding programs sometimes do train to failure, sometimes on the last set. Should these ordinary people not get a spot or a lift-off? Many programs require you do to a certain number of reps and then add 5lbs next session. Are you saying spotters are irrelevant to users of such programs?
3. Devildog's assumptions are throwaway comments disguised as insults but clearly lacking real world justification. To claim 99% of powerlifters are on steroids is laughable and besides the point. Can he prove this and show us means-tested control data? He also does not understand the purpose of spotters or a lift-off in the bench.
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I've already said what the purpose of the lift off is, it's to stay tight. And if the bar is heavy, it can be a bitch to get it out of the rack, but that depends a bit on how you set up.

You haven't been reading my posts at all. And honestly, I'm inclined to ban everyone in this thread for lack of reading comprehension. I never said you shouldn't have a spotter if you plan on going to failure. I've never said spotters are pointless. I've said I don't think everyone needs them. It's each to their own, if you plan on going to failure, get a spotter.. If you don't plan on going to failure, then I don't see the harm in not having a spotter as long as the weight isn't really heavy. Like I said, I've rolled what I ca bench off me, it wasn't a problem at all. How am I supposed to injure myself like that? The bar goes down to the chest, I get it about half way up, then it goes down again and I roll it down or tip it to the side. If I drop it, then yeah, I'll probably get hurt, but then the spotter(s) aren't very likely to catch the bar either (just youtube bench press accidents and you'll see people dropping the bar with 3 spotters not being able to catch it in powerlifting competitions). You seem so dead set that everyone needs spotters all the time. I'm not saying it's not safer with them, of course it is, but I honetly don't think you take a big risk by lifting without spotters as long as you're not using a very heavy weight. But if you are really strong, I get that you wan to use spotters.

Now, will any of you always use spotters crowd please answer my questions? I've posed them several times now, and you just ignore them and go on to say "everyone needs a spotter" or ask pointless questions about competition lifts. I've never said you don't need spotters in a competition lift.

Now, either ignore the post all together, or answer everything.

I think I'm gonna suggest a reading comprehension rule in the admin forum..
 
Response to opening post - Having a multigym myself, I can tell you that free weights are so, so much better. The fixed position of the barbell restricts certain muscles, I know this because when I use free weights, I feel bigger and other muscles feel included. Deadlift and squat are useless on multigyms, restrictive movement makes it a pain in the ass.

If you are new to weight training and you want to do it in the comfort of your own home, I'd suggest a mutligym.. however, if you are confident with lifting free weights and have sufficient skill, then definitely free weights. They are cheaper and gains are significantly better.
 
Funny you mention reading comprehension Karky ... my take on the matter is to disregard people like yourself or devildog whose opinions/slurs are based on their own practices rather than best practice for everyone. My closing statement is this, read on what a recognized coach like Rippetoe says/demonstrates on the subject.

I would also like to see devildog's demonstration and proof of his 99% stats. You can do whatever you want, only don't think that that, is best for everyone. If you have any credible evidence of your own e.g. you taught at a crossfit seminar please share with us your videos.
 
I've read and understood everything you've posted here, but you haven't answered a single one of my questions or arguments.
I've read a lot from Ripptoe.. never seen him say that everyone HAS to have a spotter no matter what.

What if you're doing speed work. Do you need a spotter then?
 
Ok I'll admit the steroid thing might be a little much. Fair enough?

But as far as spotting goes I'm sticking with that you don't need spotters unless you're a competitive lifter doing exteremly high weights or are doing very high weights like I even said I did. I've seen very few of you actually dispute that stance so by default you must agree. I understand completely what a spotter is for, hence why I use one when doing my very high lifts because sometimes I do go to failure. I know in theory there's other reasons but that doesn't apply to me.

For the person that feels the need to quesiton my age I'm 29 years old and have been training for well over a decade.

I still think that if you're a person working out in the gym and you HAVE to have a spotter for every set you're doing it wrong. When I say have to have a spotter I mean that you can't safely finish the first few sets on your own. I don't do sets I can't finish ever and still gain strength constantly. Even on my max sets I rarely ever go to failure. But what do I know? I've only been able to achieve my goals of strength and size of by using conservative methods and no supplements besides protien.

I don't watch people in the gym as if I'm a technique god, but anyone will know what goes on in their surroundings. I consistantly see youngsters and newbs having to use spotters because they are trying too much weight. The ones that don't are the ones like me that do what we can safely do except the obvious sets at the end where one is needed. I see the same guys all the time and we all experience gains and growth just fine.

Is my somewhat conservative method for everyone? I don't think so, but I think over time the ones that don't push to failure every set will experience less wear and tear on their body.
 
Devildog- not only do I not agree by default or other method, but according to a published study by Norwood (MA) Hospital and Oregon Health & Science University, weightlifting injuries have increased by nearly 50 percent between 1990 and 2007...Some 90 percent of injuries occurred in people using free weights, such as dumbbells, as compared to machines. In 65 percent of cases, weights were dropped on people. Nearly half of all injuries were diagnosed as sprains or strains." The use of a spotter can reduce the occurance of injury for many people.

Further, the ACSM flat out states in their recommendations for working out, "Always use a spotter for free weight exercises like bench presses." Not SOMETIMES, but ALWAYS. and

ACSM points out that spotters are not there simply to yank the bar off of you but can be useful to offer feedback about your technique, and give you a margin of safety to avoid injury.
 
IWA,

I'm actually a safety nut myself so you're kind of preaching to the choir. I actually have stopped people who were working out in a way that were setting themselves up for tremendous injuries, such as the kid I watched doing lat pull downs that had so much weight on the stack he was coming off the seat and trying to jerk the bar down while trying to sit back on the seat. I cringed thinking about a rotator cuff about to tear.

Personally I opine that a lot of those injuries are from a combination of using too much weight and not having spotters. I know my threshold for weight safety while still gaining strength. But it's something that as I'm sure you'll agree takes time to develop a sense for. For me the most careless people in the gym are newbs who aren't trying to be and the douches with the backwards hats carrying around gallon water jugs as if on a desert trip that think a spotter is a sign of weakness. Both types I've seen using way more weight than they need.
 
Perhaps you should wrap this up; young, new people to the sport should include a spotter when using free weights, not knowing your limits alone, as an unexperienced lifter could result in injury, its foreseeable and probable.

In regards to any other situation, having a spotter is your choice if you feel comfortable enough.

I think those injuries are due to newbie's trying to bench the highest possible weight they can, and the MAIN cause being incorrect technique.
 
I don't care what the ACSM says, if the ACSM said different and some idiot went and got himself killed while benching without a spotter, they'd probably get sued!

I wish someone in here could actually think for themselves and try to answer my arguments. Why refer to what other people are thinking, why not do it for yourself?
 
Karky said:
I don't care what the ACSM says, if the ACSM said different and some idiot went and got himself killed while benching without a spotter, they'd probably get sued!

I wish someone in here could actually think for themselves and try to answer my arguments. Why refer to what other people are thinking, why not do it for yourself?
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I'm not sure what you are driving at Karky. You are dithering between extremes, no spotter/lift-off at all or a spotter or lift-off in every situation. Listen to the Rippetoe video if you have not already done so :-

2:00 on the
- do all lifters require a lift-off? No not all lifters require a lift-off. For a heavy set .....
4:05 on the
- Don't spot the bench press as an active participant in the exercise (pretty much self-explanatory)

For me I use spotter/lift-off on heavy sets or when I'm going to failure. For speed work and light warm-up sets I do not require a spotter.
 
Karky said:
I don't care what the ACSM says, if the ACSM said different and some idiot went and got himself killed while benching without a spotter, they'd probably get sued!

I wish someone in here could actually think for themselves and try to answer my arguments. Why refer to what other people are thinking, why not do it for yourself?
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Karky- no disrespect meant here, but why is it that when you cite a reference it's considered documenting your ideas with good research, but when I just did it, it is me not thinking for myself? That's a little hypocritical don't you think?
 
Jon, it seemed to me you were preaching having a spotter and lift off in every situation.
I'm saying I don't see anything wrong with not having a spotter if you're experienced and you're not planning on going to failure. I've bench pressed for a few years now with no spotter except a few times when I'm going for a new PR, and I've failed maybe 2-3 times. The bar went down to my chest again, sometimes someone who say lifted it off, other times I rolled it down myself. I don't see how this increases my injury risk by anything more than maybe very little.
Though, I know a lot of people are used to a lift off and lose their tightness without it.. if that's true, you should get a lift off even on sets where you're not going to failure since the set will be better. And if you get a lift off the gym can just as well stand there and spot you until you're finished with the set.

That being said, I don't lift a lot in the bench press. If you feel that you won't be able to roll it off or tip it off without it hurting badly because the bar is heavy, then use a spotter.

I've seen those videos before.

And IWA. I just don't think we're arguing in a scientific way, if you will. You can find such safety regulations everywhere regarding lifting and it's seldom based on science. Has anyone researched spotting vs not spotting and injury rates in experienced lifters? If you cited such a study, I would definitely read it.
I would just like people to answer my arguments instead of blantly stating that everyone needs a spotter. I've made my argument in this and other posts in this thread about where I feel a spotter is not absolutely necessary, but no one has answered to any of them.
 
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