Under eating? Over training? How to balance

[tom_ed]

Hi all, I've been getting myself in shape now for a while, around a year. Most of that time i spent maintaining my weight loss rather than moving forward.

But summer is approaching, and i am looking for some advice to put that icing on the cake.

Ok about me. I'm 23, a guy, and i'm around 5'8, (155.5-157lbs) 71-71.5kgs (post poop morning weigh in (forgive the crudeness)). I still however have love handles and a bit of flab in my lower belly area. I am moderately muscular, which may skew a BMI estimate.

My training schedule is as follows:
Day 1, 3, 5: morning cardio + pm weights & abs
Day 2, morning cardio + pm ashtanga yoga (90 mins)
Day 4, am cardio + pm cardio
Day 6, 7: Rest, with light yoga or stretches/breathing exercises.

The morning Cardio workout i do as soon as i wake up with just water and some caffeine prior. I do only a moderate session, 10-15mins yoga to warm up plus 10-15mins of star jumps, jogging, and other little exercising. I keep an eye on the intensity so i dont over do it, but i do build up a bit of sweat. I sometimes do a long cool down of a lot of stretching and breathing exercises.

The weights workout is just a typical heavy compound focused, free weight / body weight 3 day split. I mix it up every 3 weeks and have a recovery week on week 4. The workouts consist of 10 mins warm ups/downs and 15mins of abs and 45mins weights.

The cardio sessions are high intensity, usually with a mixture of different types of exercise, they go for around 45-60mins.

Ok now my diet. I think i may need to increase my diet due to the amount of exercise 'm doing. My diet is fairly simple, i eat 720grams of meat a day in 4 servings, with veggies. I have basmarti rice (gluten intolerant) for carbs in the morning and early afternoon. And i have fruit and juice for pre and post workout meals. I also take supplements... Including, creatine, whey protein (2 servings a day), Man scorch weight loss pills, green tea, flaxseed oil + glucosamine with other oils/fats for joint health, fibre and a multivitamin.

My daily calorie intake is around 2200-2400, depending on how much sauces i may use or how large fruits are or other unavoidable variables. 38-42% carbs, 38-42% protein and 20% fat.

Ok, sorry for writing up a war and peace size thread, i just wanted to put everything out there so the experts can help.

Now i have some questions!
Am i over training?
Can i increase the amount of cardio exercise?
Am i under eating? Should i increase carbs?

I am willing to do anything to help my progress and get my body fat down into single figures. Motivation or time is a non issue. Atleast in the short term.

Thanks a heap for reading!!
Tom

 

[Steve]

I think you're doing too much cardio personally.

 

[bluet]

I think you have to increase your carbs and protein. Too many cardio won't be good for you, if you forget the basic nutrition plan.

 

[Rowe1]

I was looking for the answer but i can't seem to find it.

What is to much cardio?
Why is it bad for you?

I try to run at least a half hour every day for 30 minutes to get my blood flowing. With college and work i'm not very active other wise.


I wish home work burned more calories

 

[tom_ed]

I can up the carbs i guess, i'm just trying to find the best balance between food and exercise. I'm thinking of perhaps eating around 33-35% protein, and increasing my carbs to around 45-47% carbs while increasing my calorie intake. Any ideas of how many calories i can have without negatively effectly my fatloss? I might try 2500-2600, but that is a lot more than what im used to.

How do you know if you are over training?

I havn't jumped into this, i always increase my cardio every week by small amounts, that way my intensity levels stay about the same as my fitness grows.

Cheers all,
Tom

 

[Steve]

I can up the carbs i guess, i'm just trying to find the best balance between food and exercise. I'm thinking of perhaps eating around 33-35% protein, and increasing my carbs to around 45-47% carbs while increasing my calorie intake.

Eating a certain percentage of protein or any macro for that matter isn't the best way of going about calculating things. I much prefer to get a specific, absolute gram amount. In roundabout ways, 1 gram of protein per pound of goal body weight will work.

Figuring out protein is the foundation after calories. From there, ensuring adequate healthy fats is next than carbs is the wild card.

Any ideas of how many calories i can have without negatively effectly my fatloss? I might try 2500-2600, but that is a lot more than what im used to.

Nobody can answer that question.

A half-decent metric is to look at your rate of weight loss per week. If you're losing 1% of weight every 1-2 weeks you're 'in the right zone' when it comes to calories. If it's more, you're probably a) eating too little b) exercising too much or c) a combo.

If you're not losing enough there could be a number of factors on two sides of a fence. On one side you're eating too much or doing too little. On the other side you're doing too much and eating too little. On the former side correcting the problem is easy. On the latter, not so much.

Exercise and dieting are stressors. There are many stressors our bodies are forced to adapt to. Some we can't avoid... such as work, kids, bills, etc. Others are more controllable, like exercise and diet for instance.

Applying the right 'dose' of stress to the body is a VERY individual thing. Dosage depends on things like uncontrollable stress levels in life, genetics, recoverability, diet, goals, training age, etc, etc.

Issues can and do arise when too much stress is applied. Metabolic/hormonal disturbances can be a real bitch and lead to things like metabolic slowdowns, muscle loss, increased hunger, systemic fatigue, etc, etc.

As a general rule of thumb, I tell people that if you find yourself having to do cardio every day and especially two times per day... something is royally off on the nutrition front. That much cardio simply isn't necessary for fat loss. At all. In many cases, especially when you don't have a whole heck of a lot of fat to lose, it can be counterproductive.

If you're training for long distance running and/or need that sort of cardiovascular conditioning... that's another story. Like I always say, you need to match your training/diet with your specific goals.

How do you know if you are over training?

Overtraining is a hard place to reach to be honest. It's a true state that some elite athletes find themselves in after years upon years of very intense training and performance demands. Most average trainees are not going to find themselves truly overtrained.

Balancing out stress and recovery is the pinnacle of proper training though, even if overtraining syndrome isn't likely. Beating your body into submission, while it may very well not lead to overtraining, can lead to overreaching which if abuse, can and will lead to overuse injuries and plateaus.

Not to mention this stuff is all tied into what was discussed above regarding metabolic/hormonal disturbances.

If you're not improving in the gym (weights and cardio), you're not losing weight when you are sure you're in a calorie deficit, you don't feel like training, you have minor aches especially in the joints of the extremities... then I'd start looking over what you're doing.

If you aren't experiencing these things and if you're happy with your exercise program... then I wouldn't sweat it much even though in my opinion, what you're doing is excessive.

But for me time is a scarce commodity. I love exercising but I also love living life. I'm strong, healthy and lean and I make sure I do just enough to improve but not so much that a) it's hard for me to recover from within my limits and b) I don't cut into spending time with family and friends, reading a book, hiking, enjoying hobbies, etc, etc.

I havn't jumped into this, i always increase my cardio every week by small amounts, that way my intensity levels stay about the same as my fitness grows.

Exponential improvement is an impossibility without proper planning and management of fatigue vs. recovery.

 

[tom_ed]

Thankyou Steve for that very informative reply.

Eating a certain percentage of protein or any macro for that matter isn't the best way of going about calculating things. I much prefer to get a specific, absolute gram amount. In roundabout ways, 1 gram of protein per pound of goal body weight will work.

I am eating 1.5 grams of protein per pound, this amount 'feels' good to me, but i am willing to give cut down of course. I have increased my carbs while keeping my protein the same so i increase my overall calorie intake with a higher amount of carbs. My fats i think are fine, i get very little fats from meat or sauces, rather i try and take good fats like flaxseed oil, canola oil and unroasted salt free cashews. My overall fat intake is 50grams a day, which is about 16-18% of my daily calorie intake. (that is with the increase in carbs). How does this sound?

A half-decent metric is to look at your rate of weight loss per week. If you're losing 1% of weight every 1-2 weeks you're 'in the right zone' when it comes to calories. If it's more, you're probably a) eating too little b) exercising too much or c) a combo.

Currently i'm loosing about 1.5lbs a week, which is about 1%. I am also increasing in muscle so i may be loosing more than 1%, its hard to say just how much muscle i am putting on, but i would think it would be under a pound a week.

Issues can and do arise when too much stress is applied. Metabolic/hormonal disturbances can be a real bitch and lead to things like metabolic slowdowns, muscle loss, increased hunger, systemic fatigue, etc, etc.

That is very interesting. I found i lost a heap of weight when i started yoga and breathing exercises which are very relaxing. I think i will definitely try more of these types of relaxation.

As a general rule of thumb, I tell people that if you find yourself having to do cardio every day and especially two times per day... something is royally off on the nutrition front. That much cardio simply isn't necessary for fat loss. At all. In many cases, especially when you don't have a whole heck of a lot of fat to lose, it can be counterproductive.

I'm not just trying to loose body fat, but to increase muscle growth, strength and overall fitness. I want to be able to compete at 155lbs weight class in martial arts. I have been told that trying to loose fat while gaining muscle is counter-productive, but i only have a bit over a month before i need to compete. Also the beach season is very close away as well... So what would you suggest i do? I am willing to give anything a go.

Overall i feel pretty good, my energy levels are fine, i'm constantly improving at the gym increasing in weight/reps, and i seem to be loosing fat pretty well, though it does feel like its leaving me slowly. If there is a way i can increase my fat loss and accelerate my gains in the gym that would be fantastic.

Any further help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks again,
Tom

 

[Steve]

Thankyou Steve for that very informative reply.



I am eating 1.5 grams of protein per pound, this amount 'feels' good to me, but i am willing to give cut down of course.

1.5 grams sounds fine to me. I up my calories to this level when I'm dieting in general.

I have increased my carbs while keeping my protein the same so i increase my overall calorie intake with a higher amount of carbs.

That sounds good too.

My fats i think are fine, i get very little fats from meat or sauces, rather i try and take good fats like flaxseed oil, canola oil and unroasted salt free cashews. My overall fat intake is 50grams a day, which is about 16-18% of my daily calorie intake. (that is with the increase in carbs). How does this sound?

I prefer a higher fat intake. Something like 25-30% personally. And a get a healthy dose of fish oil too. Flax and stuff is good, but deriving EPA and DHA from such things isn't efficient at all, so fish oils are important.

Currently i'm loosing about 1.5lbs a week, which is about 1%. I am also increasing in muscle so i may be loosing more than 1%, its hard to say just how much muscle i am putting on, but i would think it would be under a pound a week.

Almost certainly under 1 lb per week. How do you know you're putting on muscle?

That is very interesting. I found i lost a heap of weight when i started yoga and breathing exercises which are very relaxing. I think i will definitely try more of these types of relaxation.

Sure that can help. But not override what I'm talking about. Yea, I'm talking about stress in general but if you're overdoing it in the gym and with the diet, this amount of PHYSIOLOGICAL stress can't be overridden by relaxation techniques.

It's critical you learn to balance physical recovery vs. fitness. Here's a small explanation of what I'm talking about here:

Lifting weights is a stress to the body, right? We impose this stress with the intent of eliciting a positive response from the body. In many cases, said response we're chasing is improved performance, strength, hypertrophy, etc. In order to experience these good things, we have to give our bodies a reason to improve... this means we have to place enough fatigue on the system to force an adaptation.

You are probably familiar with all this stuff, I'm sure. Progressive overload and all that.

When discussing this stuff, I like the fitness vs. fatigue concept.

As we train, we are building fitness and fatigue... they both accumulate over time. Put differently, we must push our bodies past its limits *some of the time* to improve, which leads to fatigue.

That whole *some of the time* concept is something a lot of people overlook to their detriment. Going in and chasing PRs day in and out will leave even the best stalled and injured. This holds true for those simply doing too much of less intense stuff.

This is where the whole concept of periodization comes about. Periodization was born out of the desire to plan training so that athletes would be at their max condition and ability at the most important times of the season.

Without this plan in place... without periodization and without the knowledge of fitness vs. fatigue... coaches would simply push harder and harder with no concept or thought of the accumulating fatigue. That's a recipe for disaster as elite performance is not something that can be maintained year round and overtraining is not a fun place for athletes to find themselves!

Knowing what we know about how the body responds to such stresses, we know that we must consider the 'dose' of fatigue to prescribe for optimal fitness enhancement. Too much fatigue or insufficient rest (which can be one in the same) leads to overtraining, reduced performance, and injury. Too little fatigue leads to suboptimal performance enhancement and a large opportunity cost.

What we're really talking about is the Two Factor Theory of training which is simply a model. People get locked into thinking it's a program but it's not. It's simply a way of thinking about the way the body works in relation to stress, fatigue and fitness.

As I noted earlier, when you train, you accumulate both fitness and fatigue. It is said that the fatigue actually 'masks' the fitness. You can build so much fatigue that you're ability actually regresses with further stress application which tells us that there is a point of diminishing returns. Without proper rest programmed into training, overreaching and overtraining occurs. The former isn't necessarily a bad thing. The latter isn't good for anyone.

With proper planning, and I realize I'm rambling a bit... you impose enough fatigue to elicit the best possible fitness gains without overdoing it. Then you back off a bit to allow the accumulated fatigue to dissipate. Fitness lasts longer than fatigue insomuch that you can take a break or plan in some lower intensity/volume stuff (usually the latter but not always) to allow for that fatigue to return to baseline leaving you with your improved fitness.

This is why many people actually get stronger after a break when timed properly. This is also what the entire concept of deloading is based on.

Hopefully I'm making some sense here, and if you have any questions, please feel free to let them fire.

The application of this is quite simple. In my own programming you'll see me do something like 3-4 weeks of building up intensity while reducing volume.... sometimes to the point where, by the end of the training cycle I'm working with triples, doubles or even singles with controlled volume.

I'll ride that out by progressing weights as much as possible but before long, invariably, my body reaches that point of diminishing returns. I know my body well enough that I don't hit that point anymore... rarely I should say. But I'd know it if I did. I'd be aching in the joints, my performance would be stalled or worse would regress, I wouldn't have the desire to train, etc, etc.

At that point, I normally hit a deload week where I train with significantly reduced volume while maintaining my intensity (i.e, weight on the bar).

This is a very simplified application of this but pretty much all worthy programs have this concept built into them... look at anything from Dante Trudel's Doggcrap training, Bryan Haycock's HST training, WSB, etc, etc.

It all comes down to fatigue management. Improving can't be one's sole focus. Recovery ability and fatigue management must go hand in hand with progressing performance... at least if you're looking for the best ROI*.

*return on investment

I'm not just trying to loose body fat, but to increase muscle growth, strength and overall fitness. I want to be able to compete at 155lbs weight class in martial arts.

This fact makes proper planning all the more important.

I have been told that trying to loose fat while gaining muscle is counter-productive, but i only have a bit over a month before i need to compete.

I don't know about it being counter-productive as much as damn near impossible for anyone who's not a) on drugs, b) very genetically blessed, c) very untrained, d) carrying a lot of excess fat, e) a combo of any of those.

 

[Steve]

Also the beach season is very close away as well... So what would you suggest i do? I am willing to give anything a go.

This isn't complicated really. Look at my basic layout when I'm cutting fat while attempting to maintain as much muscle and performance as possible.

The foundation of the 'program' is diet of course. I'll cut calories based on how much time I have, which is usually a long time. The longer time I have, the less of a calorie deficit I'll invoke. As a general rule of thumb, a good idea is losing fat consistently while eating as much food as possible.

Obviously if your short-changed in terms of time, things don't work out as cleanly.

Once calories are set, I'll go about figuring out what those calories will be comprised of. I always set protein first, which as mentioned above is 1-1.5 grams per pound. This if for me or anyone else who isn't carrying all that much fat. If you're carrying a lot of excess fat it's better to base protein consumption on lean body mass or goal body weight.

After protein I go about setting fat. I tend to set it at 25% of total calories and it's comprised primarily of the good stuff.

Carbs are the only nutrient left and they're really the wild card... meaning for some filling the rest of the calorie allotment with carbs works well for some. For others, they need much less carbs, which, in that case, they would fill the remainder of their calorie allotment with more fats and some carbs. It all depends on things such as training, genetics, carb tolerances, etc.

For me, I tend to cycle my carbs. On days that I'm training carb intake is higher. On days that I'm doing lower intensity stuff, like basic cardio, it's lower. On days that I'm resting it's lowest. That certainly isn't written in stone but it's one way I've gone about things.

In terms of training I don't like doing cardio much. I do enough to maintain my cardiovascular conditioning which isn't anything crazy. Three times per week at 20-30 minutes per session is usually plenty. Doing anything more tends to a) take away from too much free time thus making me unhappy and b) cuts into my energy for lifting which is most important while dieting since muscle/performance maintenance is triggered from this.

In terms of weight training, I tend to stick with full body sessions 2-3 times per week with controlled volume and intensity. By that I mean I don't go crazy with total sets and reps and I don't push the 'weight on the bar' past anything manageable.

One to two exercises per body part with 2-3 sets of 4-8 reps is usually plenty. I'll throw some high rep stuff in at the end generally but nothing much.

Overall i feel pretty good, my energy levels are fine, i'm constantly improving at the gym increasing in weight/reps, and i seem to be loosing fat pretty well, though it does feel like its leaving me slowly. If there is a way i can increase my fat loss and accelerate my gains in the gym that would be fantastic.

Well experimentation is worth a lot in this 'game.' If you're happy with how you feel, the results you're getting, your performance and all that good stuff, don't change things on account of what I'm saying here. I'm speaking on a very general level. I obviously do not know you and your body.

 

[tom_ed]

Alright, thanks for the help, in a weeks time ill get back to you all with my results, and pending on how much i loes i will alter the workout/diet if needed.

Cheers!

 

[Steve]

Is cardio session effective or good for the heart?

I'll just assume this is not a serious question and you simply wanted to post a ridiculous message to have your spam link seen, okay?

 

[tony_salvi]

How do you find out if having high or low carbs is good for you? I've heard of blood tests to see what your insulin levels are...but I've also heard you can judge by how you react to carbs...any thoughts? I only ask becuase I would imagine a blood test can get a bit on the expensive side

I'm 230 lbs at 5 ft 7 inches(25 age) and have started lowering my calorie intake. I do my best to track it on fitday.com(no food scale). My calorie balance shows my carbs are about 58%, fat 27%, and protein 15%. Does it seems like I'm doing anything overly wrong here? I haven't even paid attention to protein until now...might take a look at my grocery list this week

 

[Steve]

How do you find out if having high or low carbs is good for you? I've heard of blood tests to see what your insulin levels are...but I've also heard you can judge by how you react to carbs...any thoughts? I only ask becuase I would imagine a blood test can get a bit on the expensive side

This is discussed in my interview with Lyle. Find it here:

I'm 230 lbs at 5 ft 7 inches(25 age) and have started lowering my calorie intake. I do my best to track it on fitday.com(no food scale). My calorie balance shows my carbs are about 58%, fat 27%, and protein 15%. Does it seems like I'm doing anything overly wrong here? I haven't even paid attention to protein until now...might take a look at my grocery list this week

It's hard to answer and that's why I don't like using percentages as mentioned above. Absolute numbers work best.

15% of 1500 is a lot different than 15% of 3500.

Protein is most likely low though.

 

[tony_salvi]

Thanks for the info. Answered my question completely.

 

[Steve]

You're welcome, anytime.

 

[tony_salvi]

The foundation of the 'program' is diet of course. I'll cut calories based on how much time I have, which is usually a long time. The longer time I have, the less of a calorie deficit I'll invoke. As a general rule of thumb, a good idea is losing fat consistently while eating as much food as possible.

Still kind of confused on this. My BMR due to my sedentary lifestyle is 2,627 a day(according to a few websites). Still not sure what I should use for a caloric deficit. I'm currently at 1600 calories a day. Not sure why I chose that number...it just seemed right. I have alot of fat to lose(BMI is around 35%). Is this caloric too little to be losing weight at if I do 20-30 min three times a week?

Once calories are set, I'll go about figuring out what those calories will be comprised of. I always set protein first, which as mentioned above is 1-1.5 grams per pound. This if for me or anyone else who isn't carrying all that much fat. If you're carrying a lot of excess fat it's better to base protein consumption on lean body mass or goal body weight.

So if I weigh 230 now, and my goal is 170 lbs..That means protein should be about 170 - 255 grams a day?? Wow...that sounds like a lot...I'm having trouble hitting 100 with my current diet

In terms of training I don't like doing cardio much. I do enough to maintain my cardiovascular conditioning which isn't anything crazy. Three times per week at 20-30 minutes per session is usually plenty.

Sounds like I'm at least doing that right

In terms of weight training, I tend to stick with full body sessions 2-3 times per week with controlled volume and intensity. By that I mean I don't go crazy with total sets and reps and I don't push the 'weight on the bar' past anything manageable.

I'm currently just doing some exercises with small weights like lunges, push-ups(no weights), standing row...etc


I guess I'm just worried about not eating enough. Especially since I really don't have much of an appetite past 1600 right now. I think all the water I'm drinking is suppressing my appetite because I used to be a guy who visited Mcdonald's often. Anybody have any thoughts on the caloric intake??? Any suggestions would be welcome

 

[Steve]

Pick an intake that is your maintenance.

You can use a calculator for this from whatever website you choose.

Once maintenance is determined, drop calories by 30% or so to start out.

If, in two weeks, nothing is changing... simply adjust accordingly.

No sense making it more difficult than need be.

Make sense?

 

[tony_salvi]

yah makes sene...

 

[tom_ed]

Hi guys, i've been doing a lot of reading, and have changed my diet somewhat. I have started to eat protein and carbs separately, as there are studies that show you get smaller insulin spikes this way. I have also increased my fats to around 80 grams a day. My saturated fats are estimated around 25% of my total fat intake, the rest of the fat i get from Almonds, fish olis, flaxseed oil, natural peanut butter and avocado.


I have been reading about regulating your insulin levels by eating certain foods at certain times. For example eating broccoli and spinach with good fats while i eat carbs, this process apparently slows down the absorption of the carbs effectively making them low GI. Whether or not this works i can't becertain but im sure it wont hurt.

I have cut out my daily apple and replaced it with grapefruit and blueberries. Apparently grapefruit are pact with naringin and other enzymes which help to aid in loosing weight. Again i don't no for certain whether this is true, but my thinking is it can't hurt.

My total calorie intake has gone up to around 2450-2550, so i have increased my intensity for weight training, my thinking is if I'm eating too much, i will either burn it off or add muscle. I will watch out to see if i drop in performance to see if i am over training.

Lastly, i weighed myself yesterday and i was 155 (70kgs).

Is my fat levels ok?
What do you guys think of this regulating insulin idea?

Cheers all for reading,
Tom

 

[Steve]

I think none of that is worth your time, personally. Insulin doesn't make you fat, ya know?

And the majority of your fats should come from unsaturated.