Supplements Roundtable
EliteFTS Roundtable Discussion
Jim Wendler
We get asked a ton of questions (both on the EFS Q/A and in our daily life) about supplements. People want to know what to take, what works, what doses, what brands, etc.
So what do you use, recommend and what have you found that doesn’t work?
Tom Deebel
I take my supplements for health reasons first. I use1 gram a day of vitamin C, 10 g a day of pure fish oil, vitamin E, and extra fiber.
I take a post workout drink. I like Aftershock by Myogenix. In the morning I take a protein shake for breakfast with added fiber. I'll sometimes take another during the day when I can't get real food.
As for replacing real food, I don't think so. People can make better nutrition choices in what they eat, but I'll take a steak or seafood over a shake any day.
Everyone should eat more vegetables. They give you many necessary vitamins and minerals while adding bulk to help you poop better. I think people waste a lot of money on the latest whiz-bang supplement of the day when they should eat more broccoli .
As for what sucks, I'm going old school here. Gamma Oryzanol, dibencozide, raw glandulars, predigested liquid protein with the special tastes like butt flavor, and old protein powder that didn't mix.
A supplement from about 20 years ago that did what it said was Metabolol by Champion. It was the first pre and post workout drink available I think. I think they pushed it for both, but it was great for a pre-workout light on the stomach meal when you couldn't get the food in you. It was perfect for a school kid or guy running to the gym at the end of the day.
The current post workout drinks like Surge, Aftershock, Mass Maker etc. have all seemed pretty good. They're what I would recommend the average guy use. There's enough evidence to promote post workout drinks for recovery.
C.J. Murphy
I use protein shakes, pre-made in cans because I'm too lazy to make them myself, I love using Power Peanut Butter which is made from peanuts, flax seed, and egg whites. It actually tastes like peanut butter and is all natural. I also use glutamine and some kind of crack-in-a-bottle for energy. I don't even know what brand it is; it's the #2 button on my vending machine.
I should be using glutamine and creatine, but again, I'm too lazy to mix it. I think guys my weight (285-295) can safely take 20 grams of glutamine daily, I don't believe all the hype about other supplements. I like to see what has been tested and stand the test of time. The newest thing is usually pseudoscience and lots of marketing hype to steal your money.
What I think works is creatine, glutamine, protein, multi vitamin/mineral, and fish and flax oils.
I think any of the major retail brands are good but stay away from the fly by night companies. I personally use Pro Power from Fred Hatfield, ABB, and a few others.
Protein powders cannot take the place of real food. I think we all know this and why. I ran into some trouble a while back. I was pretty much living on protein shakes, Skoal, bagels, and apples due to sheer laziness and a ridiculous schedule. I got pretty fat mainly due to wasting muscle. I was not getting in nearly the calories I needed. Without making any changes to my schedule or training, and simple adding in real food, my body fat dropped to an almost non disgusting level.
Jason Ferruggia
The first thing I would recommend to everyone is to take 6-10 grams of pharmaceutical grade fish oil a day. The benefits have been discussed 847,397,587 times so I will not rehash them here. Get a good brand like Nordic Naturals and do not try to skimp and get the 50 lb bottle at price club for ten bucks. If you are not willing to spend the money on quality fish oils, don't bother taking them.
Second, I think most people could probably benefit from a good multivitamin and/or by adding a few teaspoons a day of Greens Plus to your shakes.
Next on the list would be protein powder and post workout shakes. These, like the other two, are not really supplements per se, as much as they are food substitutes. Sometimes it's impossible to eat as much protein in a day as we should, therefore a good protein shake can come in handy. Some good brands are Prolab Lean Mass Matrix Protein Complex and the Dorian Yates approved line. Beverley International is also very good quality but not if you want to get lean.
As far as post workout shakes go, I agree with Dr. Tom about the old Metabolol. That was a good product, as were and are many of Champion's products. I still use Metabolol II on occasion for post workout. Endurox with added protein is a good post workout drink as well. My favorite tasting post workout mix is vanilla Ultramet by Champion mixed with Gatorade and possibly some added maltodextrin.
The question is will a post workout shake give you better results than just eating food? There is endless research that says yes. But as anyone with any real experience knows, the answer is probably not. If you eat a whole pizza and some Gatorade, that's probably going to put more size on you. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. One of the main benefits of post workout shakes is convenience. You can rapidly slug down a lot of calories immediately after training. This is a big plus for those trying to get bigger. If you have to wait until you go change in the locker room, drive home and start cooking real food or waiting for it in a restaurant you just missed out on another meal you could have had in that day. So if you chug the shake and then go get the real food, you got in an extra 500-1000 or however many calories for that day. Also, some people do not feel like eating and can not eat solid food immediately after training. Again, that is where they can benefit from a shake.
Creatine is okay. Again the research is endlessly positive but it is no miracle pill and will help very little at best. The claims of gaining ten pounds in a week and lifts going up 25 pounds are grossly exaggerated in most cases. I have worked with hundreds of clients and have consulted with tons of coaches and trainers in the same boat and we have rarely seen huge gains from creatine. If you respond well, it can definitely have some great benefits but nothing like Bill Phillips promised me back in the mid 90's.
Glutamine is useless. I'm shocked to hear that Murph uses it. This is a supplement where the research isn't so clear. For years it was all positive and then there was a rash of negative backlash against glutamine and how dangerous it is. The arguments for why it is dangerous make sense to me. The arguments for why it is good make no sense. Bottom line is glutamine absolutely sucks!
For stimulant/pre workout supplements I like Tyrosine and caffeine. Three grams of tyrosine and 200mg of caffeine is awesome. I wouldn't use the caffeine all the time but the tyrosine can be taken regularly. For the fact that he uses this combo and the fact that it tastes great and digests well, I really like Joe's new MoJoe bars. And now that he took his picture off the label I like them even more.
Lastly, I think everyone should drink 2-6 cups of green tea per day. I know it’s not a supplement but it will do more for you than any other crap out there.
Julia Ladewski
First off, I take and think most people should take a multi-vitamin, an extra vitamin C and calcium and about 8-10 fish oils a day.
I have taken creatine in the past. It makes me bloated and retain water. My strength levels have gone up while taking it, but nothing astronomical, and probably only because I'm heavier. Still haven't decided if it really works.... mostly because I haven't been consistent enough with it to decide. I may take it once a year while preparing for a meet. Brands of the above mentioned items just need to be quality. Sometimes you don't always get the best if it's on the $1 shelf. (Solaray is a decent brand)
Protein powders are good for extra snacks and where whole foods can't be eaten. I can't speak for anyone else but there's sometimes when I just can't eat anymore whole food, so a shake is good. I have a shake (about 35 g each) mid-morning and mid-afternoon. Depending on my work schedule and when I can eat breakfast, I may have a small 15 g shake first thing in the morning (5 am). I also have a post-workout shake right after my last exercise at the gym (about 20g carbs and 8g protein). Lately, the post-workout shake has been Countdown, which is pretty good. I don't use shakes for extra mass/ calories, but simply for the extra protein. I know I won't get enough otherwise. But it definitely can't substitute real food for anyone.
I agree with Jason about Tyrosine. I don't use it during training, but I use it at a competition before my lifts. Works well.
Harry Selkow
Natura brand stuff works very well. The founders, Donald Yance Ph.D specializes in the use of nutritional and herbal approaches to cancer, heart disease, and other chronic health conditions, as complementary and/or primary therapies, and in the prevention of these diseases. Ben Tabachnik, Ph.D main job responsibility was to implement scientific discoveries in physiology, biochemistry, pharmacology and nutrition into the training programs of top-level athletes, members of the Soviet National Olympic Team. They formed the Natura adaptogens program and protocol for people here in the U.S.A. A little "crunchy" (I'm from Northern California so it's cool) and expensive, but it is very interesting stuff. You guys can read more about it here: .
I also fire down a couple Ultra Size Protein drinks, one in the morning and one post workout. Glucosomine sucks, and creatine makes me feel strong, but I think that might be a placebo affect. Hey whatever works!
EliteFTS Roundtable Discussion
Jim Wendler
We get asked a ton of questions (both on the EFS Q/A and in our daily life) about supplements. People want to know what to take, what works, what doses, what brands, etc.
So what do you use, recommend and what have you found that doesn’t work?
Tom Deebel
I take my supplements for health reasons first. I use1 gram a day of vitamin C, 10 g a day of pure fish oil, vitamin E, and extra fiber.
I take a post workout drink. I like Aftershock by Myogenix. In the morning I take a protein shake for breakfast with added fiber. I'll sometimes take another during the day when I can't get real food.
As for replacing real food, I don't think so. People can make better nutrition choices in what they eat, but I'll take a steak or seafood over a shake any day.
Everyone should eat more vegetables. They give you many necessary vitamins and minerals while adding bulk to help you poop better. I think people waste a lot of money on the latest whiz-bang supplement of the day when they should eat more broccoli .
As for what sucks, I'm going old school here. Gamma Oryzanol, dibencozide, raw glandulars, predigested liquid protein with the special tastes like butt flavor, and old protein powder that didn't mix.
A supplement from about 20 years ago that did what it said was Metabolol by Champion. It was the first pre and post workout drink available I think. I think they pushed it for both, but it was great for a pre-workout light on the stomach meal when you couldn't get the food in you. It was perfect for a school kid or guy running to the gym at the end of the day.
The current post workout drinks like Surge, Aftershock, Mass Maker etc. have all seemed pretty good. They're what I would recommend the average guy use. There's enough evidence to promote post workout drinks for recovery.
C.J. Murphy
I use protein shakes, pre-made in cans because I'm too lazy to make them myself, I love using Power Peanut Butter which is made from peanuts, flax seed, and egg whites. It actually tastes like peanut butter and is all natural. I also use glutamine and some kind of crack-in-a-bottle for energy. I don't even know what brand it is; it's the #2 button on my vending machine.
I should be using glutamine and creatine, but again, I'm too lazy to mix it. I think guys my weight (285-295) can safely take 20 grams of glutamine daily, I don't believe all the hype about other supplements. I like to see what has been tested and stand the test of time. The newest thing is usually pseudoscience and lots of marketing hype to steal your money.
What I think works is creatine, glutamine, protein, multi vitamin/mineral, and fish and flax oils.
I think any of the major retail brands are good but stay away from the fly by night companies. I personally use Pro Power from Fred Hatfield, ABB, and a few others.
Protein powders cannot take the place of real food. I think we all know this and why. I ran into some trouble a while back. I was pretty much living on protein shakes, Skoal, bagels, and apples due to sheer laziness and a ridiculous schedule. I got pretty fat mainly due to wasting muscle. I was not getting in nearly the calories I needed. Without making any changes to my schedule or training, and simple adding in real food, my body fat dropped to an almost non disgusting level.
Jason Ferruggia
The first thing I would recommend to everyone is to take 6-10 grams of pharmaceutical grade fish oil a day. The benefits have been discussed 847,397,587 times so I will not rehash them here. Get a good brand like Nordic Naturals and do not try to skimp and get the 50 lb bottle at price club for ten bucks. If you are not willing to spend the money on quality fish oils, don't bother taking them.
Second, I think most people could probably benefit from a good multivitamin and/or by adding a few teaspoons a day of Greens Plus to your shakes.
Next on the list would be protein powder and post workout shakes. These, like the other two, are not really supplements per se, as much as they are food substitutes. Sometimes it's impossible to eat as much protein in a day as we should, therefore a good protein shake can come in handy. Some good brands are Prolab Lean Mass Matrix Protein Complex and the Dorian Yates approved line. Beverley International is also very good quality but not if you want to get lean.
As far as post workout shakes go, I agree with Dr. Tom about the old Metabolol. That was a good product, as were and are many of Champion's products. I still use Metabolol II on occasion for post workout. Endurox with added protein is a good post workout drink as well. My favorite tasting post workout mix is vanilla Ultramet by Champion mixed with Gatorade and possibly some added maltodextrin.
The question is will a post workout shake give you better results than just eating food? There is endless research that says yes. But as anyone with any real experience knows, the answer is probably not. If you eat a whole pizza and some Gatorade, that's probably going to put more size on you. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. One of the main benefits of post workout shakes is convenience. You can rapidly slug down a lot of calories immediately after training. This is a big plus for those trying to get bigger. If you have to wait until you go change in the locker room, drive home and start cooking real food or waiting for it in a restaurant you just missed out on another meal you could have had in that day. So if you chug the shake and then go get the real food, you got in an extra 500-1000 or however many calories for that day. Also, some people do not feel like eating and can not eat solid food immediately after training. Again, that is where they can benefit from a shake.
Creatine is okay. Again the research is endlessly positive but it is no miracle pill and will help very little at best. The claims of gaining ten pounds in a week and lifts going up 25 pounds are grossly exaggerated in most cases. I have worked with hundreds of clients and have consulted with tons of coaches and trainers in the same boat and we have rarely seen huge gains from creatine. If you respond well, it can definitely have some great benefits but nothing like Bill Phillips promised me back in the mid 90's.
Glutamine is useless. I'm shocked to hear that Murph uses it. This is a supplement where the research isn't so clear. For years it was all positive and then there was a rash of negative backlash against glutamine and how dangerous it is. The arguments for why it is dangerous make sense to me. The arguments for why it is good make no sense. Bottom line is glutamine absolutely sucks!
For stimulant/pre workout supplements I like Tyrosine and caffeine. Three grams of tyrosine and 200mg of caffeine is awesome. I wouldn't use the caffeine all the time but the tyrosine can be taken regularly. For the fact that he uses this combo and the fact that it tastes great and digests well, I really like Joe's new MoJoe bars. And now that he took his picture off the label I like them even more.
Lastly, I think everyone should drink 2-6 cups of green tea per day. I know it’s not a supplement but it will do more for you than any other crap out there.
Julia Ladewski
First off, I take and think most people should take a multi-vitamin, an extra vitamin C and calcium and about 8-10 fish oils a day.
I have taken creatine in the past. It makes me bloated and retain water. My strength levels have gone up while taking it, but nothing astronomical, and probably only because I'm heavier. Still haven't decided if it really works.... mostly because I haven't been consistent enough with it to decide. I may take it once a year while preparing for a meet. Brands of the above mentioned items just need to be quality. Sometimes you don't always get the best if it's on the $1 shelf. (Solaray is a decent brand)
Protein powders are good for extra snacks and where whole foods can't be eaten. I can't speak for anyone else but there's sometimes when I just can't eat anymore whole food, so a shake is good. I have a shake (about 35 g each) mid-morning and mid-afternoon. Depending on my work schedule and when I can eat breakfast, I may have a small 15 g shake first thing in the morning (5 am). I also have a post-workout shake right after my last exercise at the gym (about 20g carbs and 8g protein). Lately, the post-workout shake has been Countdown, which is pretty good. I don't use shakes for extra mass/ calories, but simply for the extra protein. I know I won't get enough otherwise. But it definitely can't substitute real food for anyone.
I agree with Jason about Tyrosine. I don't use it during training, but I use it at a competition before my lifts. Works well.
Harry Selkow
Natura brand stuff works very well. The founders, Donald Yance Ph.D specializes in the use of nutritional and herbal approaches to cancer, heart disease, and other chronic health conditions, as complementary and/or primary therapies, and in the prevention of these diseases. Ben Tabachnik, Ph.D main job responsibility was to implement scientific discoveries in physiology, biochemistry, pharmacology and nutrition into the training programs of top-level athletes, members of the Soviet National Olympic Team. They formed the Natura adaptogens program and protocol for people here in the U.S.A. A little "crunchy" (I'm from Northern California so it's cool) and expensive, but it is very interesting stuff. You guys can read more about it here: .
I also fire down a couple Ultra Size Protein drinks, one in the morning and one post workout. Glucosomine sucks, and creatine makes me feel strong, but I think that might be a placebo affect. Hey whatever works!