Super high intensity workout -> kills immune system

[lump]

I'm new here - this is my first post so be gentle.

I have a recurring issue with training very hard to exhaustion (a single workout can do it) and then weakening my immune system, then on the second day afterwards I have the flu. Not your regular flu, just fever, extreme exhaustion - sleep for 20 hours straight, then 2 days later I'm ok again.

Background - I am fit - heart and lungs - resting heartrate of 38bpm, I have done various cardio workouts for 2 years steady in my weekday lunch hours, stairmasters, treadmills, running, bike, spinning classes, interval training etc. I can go months without getting a cold or flu.

I recently saw a sports nutritionist and she has me eating about 5 meals per day, lots of fruits and vegetables, carbs in the morning before my workout, protein after workout, a relatively low carb/fat late in the day to lower my bodyfat (currently about 14%). She also has me on a multivitamin plus cold fx and 1g vit C per day.

This tues I went to kickboxing class for pad training - extreme intensity, 4 min rounds with 1 min break. I only did three rounds and was completely exhausted - so ONLY 15 min total including rest. (I train with professional Muay Thai and MMA fighters so they work you to the bone)

I continued with the 1.5 hour lower intensity muay thai class and went home to bed. I was a bit sick the next morning and then the following day my immune system gave up and I was laid out for 20 hours on the couch - nobody could wake me up. Almost like a coma!

I am in good shape and have good cardio - but why does a single 15 min of extreme cardio put me out for 2 or 3 days??

Nutrition? Lack of rest? Am I missing a vitamin? Do I need to get bloodwork done to fine the cause?

This also used to happen when I played A level squash - if I had a very draining match that lasted over 1 hour, I would be sick the next day, guaranteed.

[EDIT: Also to put it in perspective, I have been doing about 8 or 9 hours of medium intensity cardio per week, some of which is interval training. Steady pace is about 145bpm and intervals are 130 to 170 bpm. I have been doing this for a YEAR and did not get sick - attibuted to the workout volume]

 

[thedevil]

Very strange.. Just curious.. What is your age and do you have an estimate of how high you heart rate goes at the end of the 'extreme' workout? How quickly does it fall back to normal?

 

[lump]

I am 32 years old. I do not wear a monitor during Muay Thai pad training but I am sure it is around 185 to 190 peak by perceived effort. The average during the 4 minutes would be (guess) 175 but it feels like a sprint and I gas at the end of 4 minutes. I walk in the 1 min break and it probably gets down to 150'ish when I restart because it continues to climb after I stop. When I trained competively for squash I kept track of my heart rate recovery and it was very good. Even now when I get off the stairmaster after an hour at 145 bpm I can get down to 110 within 1 minute of walking. [I will wear my heart rate monitor/recorder next time out and post results here - one reading every 5 seconds I believe.]

To put it in perspective, I used to wear heart rate monitor when I played a high level squash matches - it would peak close to 195 and I would know it was high - I would change the pace of the rally and when I played it back I could recover to 130-140 after a couple of points if I played conservatively.

I trained court sprints for interval training back then (4 years ago) and would train to that heart rate for short intervals to simulate the match.

Another interesting point - after my 3 rounds of high intensity training this tuesday - I was gassed, but if I took 15 minutes off I feel like I could have done another 3 rounds at the time. But by the way I felt the next day - the damage was done.

 

[surreal]

Sounds serious so by all means, see a doctor, and get some blood work done or at least get a look-over. Can't hurt (unless you bruise easily- then it'll hurt a little).

Diet looks good. Your routine seems like it might be a little over-strenuous but it shouldn't be enough to cause a problem with your immune system (especially only during high intensity) by itself. First I'd like to ask 2 questions simply to get them out of the way.

1) How much do you sleep a night and do you have sleep apnea? This counts as one question. ;p
2) How many calories are you burning compared to your intake?

Assuming there's nothing obviously wrong with the above, here's what I *think* the likely cause is and what I believe you should really look into; talk to your nutritionist (or another one since corrraborating is better) and doctor(s) about...

38 Resting is really low. I just took mine and I had about 38 beats in 30 seconds. Normal resting BPM is 60-80 varying over weight/height/age. You have whats apparently diagnosed as bradycardia.




A relating factor to the bradycardia or perhaps a seperate factor resulting in your immune system weakening is your carbohydrate/sugar intake.



How low is low in the carb department? Sugar (carbs and glucose) is necessary for a healthy immune system. And you might be burning them all away every session.

I know you want to lower body fat but your body needs carbs/sugar. Fruits will help out but you need enough overall carbs (especially ones that turn into sugar).

There could of course be other factors for/of bradycardia, and different effects low blood sugar are having (or causes for it)... bradycardia may not be the cause of your weak immune system and perhaps its not lack of carbs/sugar but all these factors maybe be related one way or another. For instance, your heart rate should increase when your body's immune system is fighting or working. Maybe your bradycardia is significant in a lazy/weaker immune system. There are also other sugar diseases (may not be carb intake) other than diabetes that may lower blood sugar and cause low BPM. My girlfriend isn't diabetic but she has a condition (doctor examined) that causes her blood sugar to drop to the point where she gets dizzy and under extreme duress faints almost always when in a hot climate. The low blood sugar obviously doesnt make her dizzy, but the subsequent drop in blood pressure does (she feels almost instantly better after drinking some gatorade, juice or soda).

I think talking to a doctor or doctors would be a good idea. Certainly couldn't hurt (unless they jab you with that needle again). The links are just their for insight. But you should probably talk to professional M.D.s etc, since your immune system isn't something you should pass over.

 

[lump]

Sounds serious so by all means, see a doctor, and get some blood work done or at least get a look-over. Can't hurt (unless you bruise easily- then it'll hurt a little).

Diet looks good. Your routine seems like it might be a little over-strenuous but it shouldn't be enough to cause a problem with your immune system (especially only during high intensity) by itself. First I'd like to ask 2 questions simply to get them out of the way.

1) How much do you sleep a night and do you have sleep apnea? This counts as one question. ;p
2) How many calories are you burning compared to your intake?

Assuming there's nothing obviously wrong with the above, here's what I *think* the likely cause is and what I believe you should really look into; talk to your nutritionist (or another one since corrraborating is better) and doctor(s) about...

38 Resting is really low. I just took mine and I had about 38 beats in 30 seconds. Normal resting BPM is 60-80 varying over weight/height/age. You have whats apparently diagnosed as bradycardia.




A relating factor to the bradycardia or perhaps a seperate factor resulting in your immune system weakening is your carbohydrate/sugar intake.



How low is low in the carb department? Sugar (carbs and glucose) is necessary for a healthy immune system. And you might be burning them all away every session.

I know you want to lower body fat but your body needs carbs/sugar. Fruits will help out but you need enough overall carbs (especially ones that turn into sugar).

There could of course be other factors for/of bradycardia, and different effects low blood sugar are having (or causes for it)... bradycardia may not be the cause of your weak immune system and perhaps its not lack of carbs/sugar but all these factors maybe be related one way or another. For instance, your heart rate should increase when your body's immune system is fighting or working. Maybe your bradycardia is significant in a lazy/weaker immune system. There are also other sugar diseases (may not be carb intake) other than diabetes that may lower blood sugar and cause low BPM. My girlfriend isn't diabetic but she has a condition (doctor examined) that causes her blood sugar to drop to the point where she gets dizzy and under extreme duress faints almost always when in a hot climate. The low blood sugar obviously doesnt make her dizzy, but the subsequent drop in blood pressure does (she feels almost instantly better after drinking some gatorade, juice or soda).

I think talking to a doctor or doctors would be a good idea. Certainly couldn't hurt (unless they jab you with that needle again). The links are just their for insight. But you should probably talk to professional M.D.s etc, since your immune system isn't something you should pass over.

To answer #1)I don't sleep enough - too many hobbies, family, work etc. I am not stressed, I just can't get myself to go to sleep until 12 or 1am every night and I'm up at 6. I snore like a mofo says the wife.

#2) I don't know exactly - weight isn't exactly dropping off of me, not even 1lb per week, maybe 1/2lb per week and I'm 200.

I feel confident that my HR is ok - I do international travel for work so they put me through the ringer with fit tests, EKG's etc twice per year. Also full blood work but I never mentioned this tendency to get sick when I overtrain (I am only stupid enough to do it maybe 3 times bad per year).

Also, my resting HR used to be around 55-60 - and I tracked it regularly over the years and it's dropping is a direct correlation to my cardio level. BUT I will still ask the doc about the condition you mentioned. The only time I notice the low heartrate is if I am lying down and them jump up REALLY FAST and run to get the phone for example, see a couple of stars then I'm fine. But my wife's HR is 70bpm and she says this happens to her too...

Here's what the dietician has me on for the short term - fat loss program. 7am fruit for breakfast 3 pieces, usually one banana and 2 apples. 10am oatmeal 1/3cup measured dry with brown sugar. 12-1 workout. 1pm protein shake 30g. 2pm chef's salad - large - with thousand island dressing, generous chunks of ham and cheese, a boiled egg, various veg. 4pm snack an apple or orange 7pm dinner full plate, 3/4 veg, 1/4 protein. No snacks after dinner except maybe a protein shake at bedtime.

After I saw her the second time she changed my lunch to more of a 50/50 protein/veg like a pita or wrap with chicken etc, and my dinner to 1/2 veg 1/2 protein.

I think I am eating enough because overall (except for this recent episode) I have never felt better! I have been eating like this since about April 05.

 

[thedevil]

38 Resting is really low. I just took mine and I had about 38 beats in 30 seconds. Normal resting BPM is 60-80 varying over weight/height/age. You have whats apparently diagnosed as bradycardia.


This is precisely what I had in mind earlier.. Very high levels of fitness will go as low as 45bpm but not lower. Its spelled as Brachycardia in some places.

 

[lump]

38 Resting is really low. I just took mine and I had about 38 beats in 30 seconds. Normal resting BPM is 60-80 varying over weight/height/age. You have whats apparently diagnosed as bradycardia.


This is precisely what I had in mind earlier.. Very high levels of fitness will go as low as 45bpm but not lower. Its spelled as Brachycardia in some places.

You guys are freaking me out!

What Is It?

Bradycardia is an abnormally slow heart rate of less than 60 beats per minute. A normal heartbeat is between 60 and 100 beats per minute.
Here's what happens during a normal heartbeat: The electrical signal that starts a heartbeat comes from the heart's sinus node, the natural pacemaker located in the upper portion of the right atrium. From the sinus node, the heartbeat signal travels to the atrioventricular (A-V) node, located between the atria, and then through the bundle of His (pronounced "hiss") — a series of modified heart-muscle fibers located between the ventricles to the muscles of the ventricles. This triggers a contraction of the ventricles and produces a heartbeat.

Bradycardia, even as low as 50 beats per minute, can be normal in athletes and other people who are physically active. In these people, regular exercise improves the heart's ability to pump blood efficiently, so fewer heart contractions are required to supply the body's needs.

In other cases, bradycardia can be a form of cardiac arrhythmia, a heart-rate abnormality. Cardiac arrhythmia can be caused by a problem in the sinus node, or it can be related to some disturbance in the passage of heartbeat signals through the A-V node and bundle of His. Also, bradycardia sometimes is a side effect of certain medications, including propranolol (Inderal), atenolol (Tenormin), metoprolol (Toprol-XL), sotalol (Betapace), verapamil (Calan, Isoptin, Verelan) and diltiazem (Cardizem, Dilacor-XR). Bradycardia also occurs in some people who have certain medical illnesses not related to the heart, such as:

Abnormally low level of thyroid hormones (hypothyroidism)
Severe liver disease
An abnormally low body temperature (hypothermia)
Typhoid fever
Brucellosis, an infectious disease marked by fever, sweating and weakness that is transmitted to humans by direct contact with diseased animals or through ingestion of contaminated meat, milk or cheese
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Symptoms

Bradycardia can cause dizziness, weakness, lack of energy, or fainting spells.
If bradycardia is caused by a medical illness, there will be additional symptoms that are specific to that illness. For example, people whose bradycardia is due to severe hypothyroidism also can have constipation, muscle cramps, weight gain (often despite poor appetite), very dry skin, hair that is thin and dry, an abnormal sensitivity to cold temperatures and other symptoms related to low levels of thyroid hormones.

I would like to think I fall into the highlighted paragraph - it can be normal in athletes and physically active people. I have not worn an EKG overnight - but because of my work - I have had SIX EKG's in the last 3 years, all interpretted by a cardiologist, I met with him personally, and he said that there are no problems. We even discussed my low heart rate and he asked me how much I exercise.

I also do not have any of the symptoms, with the exception of this one problem I have when I do the extreme workouts, I feel the best I have ever felt in my life.

In addition, when I was on a collegiate sports team at 21 years old, they did fit tests on the entire team including vo2 max and heart rate recovery and max work volume and I finished all tests top out of 25 people. So I would like to think that i have a very efficient heart, but I will still bring up the Brachycardia word with my family doctor when I have a medical for my race car license in 2 weeks!

 

[surreal]

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