Sport Struggling with Calorie Target

Sport Fitness
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underPAR

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I am about 5'11", 163 pounds, body fat ~11%. My diet is extremely clean, to the point of obsession, and I train hard. Weights 4x/week, cardio 3x/week.

I'm struggling with matching my nutrition with my goals. I want to build muscle mass, but I also want to drop my body fat 3-4%. I know that the bodybuilder's paradox is "you can't build muscle and lose fat at the same time." Is this always true?

Here's my question: What would happen if I consume about 200 calories under my maintenance level per day, but still get more-than-enough protein?

For example, yesterday I consumed about 2500 calories (240 g protein, 240 g carbs, 55 g fat). My maintenance level is somewhere between 2700 and 3000 calories. Could I build muscle and lose fat on this kind of daily plan?

I would like to hear from anyone who had success building muscle and losing body fat at the same time. What did your calorie intake look like?
 
I'm not that person that has successfully built muscle and lost fat at the same time, but I know that you can't build muscle if your not consuming calories in a surplus. You could get 500 g of protein, but if you aren't consuming enough calories, that protein is going to do jack in terms of adding muscle.

The only people that I've heard of that have done this are beginners with a solid amount of fat, and people who do zig-zag diets (like Chillen) in which they consume on a surplus some days and on a deficit on others. You may want to consider this type of diet if you really want to do both at the same time.
 
^
Hmm...interesting.

So, what about this... On my four weightlifting days, eat 300-500 calories over my maintenance level. On my three non-lifting days, eat 300-500 calories under my maintenance level.

Is that kind of what you're talking about? Chillen, what do you think?
 
Given where you are starting (in pretty good shape, good diet, good program), I think it definitely makes sense to lose OR build, not both.

Remember, though, that you can gain strength even without building muscle mass - by making the muscle you have work more efficiently. Don't overlook the significance of that. It means you can get stronger and set yourself up for the future, even as you cut.
 
I agree with benelson. Save yourself the headache of not meeting goals and do one or the other. In my experience, when I first started lifting, I was losing fat, and my lifts were going up. Would I say that I gained muscle, not necessarily. My CNS may have just gotten more efficient, utilizing more motor units and giving me the impression of having gained muscle.

Once I just got my goals straight, and ate in a 500 calorie deficit, I lost over 30 pounds of fat, and now I have upped my calories to 500 over, and am already seeing my numbers go up.
 
underPAR said:
^
Hmm...interesting.

So, what about this... On my four weightlifting days, eat 300-500 calories over my maintenance level. On my three non-lifting days, eat 300-500 calories under my maintenance level.

Is that kind of what you're talking about? Chillen, what do you think?
Click to expand...

But wasn't your ' maintenance level ' already calculated ( i.e Harris - Benedict ) based on the fact that you weight train 4 days a week ?
 
Wrangell said:
But wasn't your ' maintenance level ' already calculated ( i.e Harris - Benedict ) based on the fact that you weight train 4 days a week ?
Click to expand...
Um...yes? I don't see what you're getting at. Doesn't matter what my maintenance level is, I could still eat over it or under it. If I lift weights, then my maintenance level for that day just goes up.

But based on the advice here, and further research, I'm thinking like I should stick with a "cut or bulk" cycle.

Now I'm confused about which I should do first. I think I would like to cut first; I'm thin, but I really want to get rid of the small fat layer covering my abs. But on the other hand, it seems smart to do a clean bulk during the winter months (holidays, etc.) and then cut in the spring.

What would your advice be?
 
underPAR said:
Um...yes? I don't see what you're getting at. Doesn't matter what my maintenance level is, I could still eat over it or under it.
Click to expand...


Because, if your ' maintenance level ' is already calculated ( i.e Harris - Benedict ) using pre-determined activity levels included as part of the formula you're already taking into account the fact that you weight train 4 days a week. Presumably, your maintenance level already includes enough calories in it to fuel your weight workouts. In that case, there is no need to bump your calories by 300 - 500 on the days when you weight train.

underPAR said:
If I lift weights, then my maintenance level for that day just goes up.
Click to expand...

Again, I would assume your calculation for ' maintenance level ' already takes into account your weight training.
 
I cut down about 30 pounds of fat, and I was pretty thin. I kept at it, trying to get the last bit of fat from my abs, and let me tell you, it is difficult. I think, as you said, since it's winter, take this time to eat in a surplus, and pack on some muscle. Then, when it's time to cut, you will have more muscle, which is metabolically more expensive, and you will have an easier time getting to a lower BF. That is what I am doing, and I hope to have great success.
 
amp89 said:
I'm not that person that has successfully built muscle and lost fat at the same time, but I know that you can't build muscle if your not consuming calories in a surplus. You could get 500 g of protein, but if you aren't consuming enough calories, that protein is going to do jack in terms of adding muscle.

The only people that I've heard of that have done this are beginners with a solid amount of fat, and people who do zig-zag diets (like Chillen) in which they consume on a surplus some days and on a deficit on others. You may want to consider this type of diet if you really want to do both at the same time.
Click to expand...


can you please explain this to me? the part where you say "the only people that I've heard of that have done this are beginners with a solid amount of fat." is it easier for people with excess fat toi build muscle and lose fat at the same time?>
 
Essentially yes. When someone is very overweight, and has not trained in a long time, or not at all, when they start working out they usually find that they can add muscle while losing fat at the same time. I have never been in this position, but from what I've gathered on the forum this is the general consensus. However, once you have been training for a while and your body adapts, then you essentially need to choose one or the other. But again this really only works for people that are very overweight as far as I know.
 
MarkMyWords said:
take this time to eat in a surplus, and pack on some muscle. Then, when it's time to cut, you will have more muscle, which is metabolically more expensive, and you will have an easier time getting to a lower BF. That is what I am doing, and I hope to have great success.
Click to expand...
I'm in the process of doing thes ame.
 
underPAR said:
^
Hmm...interesting.

So, what about this... On my four weightlifting days, eat 300-500 calories over my maintenance level. On my three non-lifting days, eat 300-500 calories under my maintenance level.

Is that kind of what you're talking about? Chillen, what do you think?
Click to expand...

I tend to lean toward "basic" calorie manipulations for the average person when trying to lose or gain tissue. In other words, deciding to do one or the other (cut or bulk).

Contrary to some opinions that may or not be present on the forum, there are goal situations that is in line with the present bodily composition that other forms of nutrient manipulations and/or calorie manipulations can be an ideal source to tweak additional fat loss and in some cases muscle gain (I am assuming training is being done here as well) (i.e Ketogentic diet, zig-zag, etc).

What is your current body composition like, underPAR?

What most people tend to forget about my diet and training for the first year is the mere FACT that my diet was in a DEFICIT 95% of the time, and factoring in calorie manipulations toward the middle and end (and Ketogentic diet and calorie manipulations and increased cardio in May 07, which I have wrote about many times), brought the result pics you have seen. I wasnt looking to be huge, I wanted a muscular and lean look, and it produced it within the confinement of my goal. Calorie manipulations-------can be a most POWERFUL thing, and my opinion on "that" is rather strong. What works for one may not work for another, many factors do, I agree, have to be considered.
 
philsaigon said:
I'm in the process of doing thes ame.
Click to expand...

Good luck with it man. I really hope I see some results. I did everything perfect, from planning my workouts, with periodization, and planning every meal down to the exact calorie and macro. I've always thought preparation is a key for success! :D
 
Chillen said:
I tend to lean toward "basic" calorie manipulations for the average person when trying to lose or gain tissue. In other words, deciding to do one or the other (cut or bulk).

...

What is your current body composition like, underPAR?
Click to expand...

A conservative estimate of my body fat would be 11% (it may be 1 or 2% lower). I'll get it tested this week. For being thin (29-30 inch waist), I have a fairly muscular physique. Two years ago I was 195 pounds and about 23% body fat. In the next year I lost 50 pounds (INSANE cardio), but unfortunately some of that was muscle. I spent most of the summer bulking up, and I was able to put on a solid 15 pounds of muscle. I'm at ~163 pounds right now, and have a better understanding of fitness in general.

I've been thinking about this a lot, and one thing I've realized is that having a 6-pack (a lifelong goal) is more important to me right now than building muscle mass. Right now I have a small layer of fat covering my abs. Since I'm pretty close, I would like to cut for 2-3 months and finally get my 6-pack. Then, once I know I can do it, I will go on a hard bulk during the spring, and then a hard cut during the summer. How does that sound?
Thanks for the help.
 
I have successfully built muscle and cut fat at the same time.

Last year around this time I got very serious about getting lean. I started at a body fat percentage of 10.1%.

After a month of weight training, cardio, and actually a very poor diet (because I was uninformed) consisting of a lot of processed noodles (pasta roni, mac and cheese) hot dogs, hamburgers, and pop tarts.

Anyway, I started at 10.1% body fat and I weighed 143 pounds. 5 feet 8 inches tall.

After a month of this my body fat % was 9.3% and I weighed 142.5 pounds. That means that I gained a little over a pound of muscle and I lost a little over a pound of fat according to the skinfold tests (performed by a professional, same person both times).

Ever since that time though I haven't been able to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time. My diet is millions of times better.. but I think it was just what some people call "noob gains" which means when you first start out you can lose fat and gain muscle at the same time.

I wasn't a complete noob... I had been lifting off and on for over seven years.. when I started though getting serious last year though, I hadn't lifted for over a year. So this was my noob gain story.
 
underPAR said:
A conservative estimate of my body fat would be 11% (it may be 1 or 2% lower). I'll get it tested this week. For being thin (29-30 inch waist), I have a fairly muscular physique. Two years ago I was 195 pounds and about 23% body fat. In the next year I lost 50 pounds (INSANE cardio), but unfortunately some of that was muscle. I spent most of the summer bulking up, and I was able to put on a solid 15 pounds of muscle. I'm at ~163 pounds right now, and have a better understanding of fitness in general.

I've been thinking about this a lot, and one thing I've realized is that having a 6-pack (a lifelong goal) is more important to me right now than building muscle mass. Right now I have a small layer of fat covering my abs. Since I'm pretty close, I would like to cut for 2-3 months and finally get my 6-pack. Then, once I know I can do it, I will go on a hard bulk during the spring, and then a hard cut during the summer. How does that sound?
Thanks for the help.
Click to expand...

Heh, getting a six pack was one of my lifelong goals as well. I accomplished it this summer. One day I lifted up my shirt and there were very solid defined abs showing. This was during my bulk session...

I always thought the abs were under a layer of fat, but the muscles just weren't big enough. It took me over a year of crunches and other ab exercises to get the ab muscles defined like that.

If you pull down that thin layer of fat on your stomach can you see your six pack? If you can you are getting very close! Just need to lose a bit more fat around the stomach.

If you can't though.. you probably need to bulk up and get those muscles bigger.

This has been my experience anyway.
 
^
Yes, I can see my abs if I pull the skin a little tight, or if I jump up and down, etc. My abs are definitely there. When I flex, I can distinctly feel each ab region with my hand.

It's encouraging to hear you were able to build muscle and lose some fat. I suppose the more muscle you have, the more your metabolism speeds up, so that was probably a factor.
 
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