Sleep/Rest Periods

[Typhon]

I was wondering what people’s opinions about recovery periods are on here, specifically sleep. Obviously sleep is vital to muscle growth and repair but I’m curious about a few things like whether it’s best to have that rest in one continuous sleep or if sleep can be split into naps throughout the day with the same benefits. Also, how long is long enough for optimal results? Do you need to fall into a deep sleep phase for results to be optimal?

I have no preconceptions here, it’s an area that I’m very open to admit that I’m quite ignorant about. I know (Or at least I assume through having been told by sources I place trust in) that sleep is vital to muscle growth but know little of the science or research behind it and the details of what ‘optimal’ sleep for muscle growth might be.

For example, if continuous sleep is best then would it do more harm than good to set an alarm halfway through the night to consume a protein shake? I’m not crazy enough to do that but it’s quite common with people who take training seriously. Are these people misguided or is it OK to break sleep into segments?

If you want to think about it further, do you even need to sleep for optimal muscle repair? Could you just lie down for a few hours and not move much?

 

[Big_Idiot]

I'm glad you asked this actually, because this is something i could know more about.

I do know that hormones such as growth hormone are released whilst sleeping, so i can only see sleep as being a constant benefit.

But as i say, i'm not very knowledgable on this subject

 

[Typhon]

I'm glad you asked this actually, because this is something i could know more about.

I do know that hormones such as growth hormone are released whilst sleeping, so i can only see sleep as being a constant benefit.

But as i say, i'm not very knowledgable on this subject

Yeah, GH release is a good point, it would be good if anyone on here could shine a little light onto how the release is triggered and how long sleep needs to last for the full benefits to be received

This is quite interesting to me as I often sleep in two shifts on days when I look after the kids as my little boy likes going to sleep early and waking very early as well so I often only have 5 hours at night and then about 2 hours in the day (on days I'm not working obviously)

 

[blackbeard]

Sleep is important. A couple of articles :-

*Don't Let The Sheriff's Men Steal Your Muscles Overnight by Dr Berardi

*The Effects of Sleep on Muscle Gain

I would try and get 8 hours every night and then if you are operating at a sleep deficit, then catch up on weekend naps.

 

[Typhon]

I like the Berardi article but the other one is just more of the same ‘you need 8 hours sleep, mkay’ kind of stuff. It would be good to read something a little more scientific about the stages of sleep, the times they might occur, when repair and hormonal changes predominantly take place etc, etc.

I guess the level of knowledge I’m interested in is more at the undergraduate level rather than Mens health

 

[blackbeard]

I like the Berardi article but the other one is just more of the same ‘you need 8 hours sleep, mkay’ kind of stuff. It would be good to read something a little more scientific about the stages of sleep, the times they might occur, when repair and hormonal changes predominantly take place etc, etc.

[bI guess the level of knowledge I’m interested in is more at the undergraduate level rather than Mens health[/b

The floor is open you can do a little reading on your own. I woudn't dismiss the other article as "men health reader stuff". How many times on this forum have you seen anyone quoting the SAID principle?

Deep sleep is important because during this phase the body is able to repair the muscles that were torn or broken during the workout. Also, while you are in deep sleep your body also begins the process of Specific Adaptation to Imposed Demand. During this process, known as SAID, your body builds your muscles bigger and stronger so that when you workout again your muscles will be ready. This is the process of gaining true muscles and if you want to build muscles you will be sure that you not only workout properly, but that you also get plenty of deep rest to help your body do its job and reward you for working out by building your muscles bigger and stronger.

 

[Typhon]

I woudn't dismiss the other article as "men health reader stuff". How many times on this forum have you seen anyone quoting the SAID principle?

The SAID principle isn't relevent to my questions though, it's basically just a principle that states that a body will adapt to cope with the stresses placed apon it by specific stimuli. The article just says that SAID starts during sleep but doesn't say how or why so it's very, very basic stuff based mainly on common perception and little on scientific reasoning

What I'm interested in is what chemical reations take place during sleep, when they happen, how much is needed and whether sleep can be split or needs to be continuous

And yes, I am trying to read up on this myself but while I'm at work I thought I'd throw it open to the forum for some insight

 

[NoLoveLost]

Not sure if this is the sort of thing you are looking for:

 

[Karky]

what the ****?! the SAID principle isn't begun in sleep.. the said principle is just something to say that you need to practice what you want to get better at, in the conditions under which you want to get better at it. Sure, a lot of stuff happens when you sleep, physiological adaptions and so forth, but the said principle isn't something that "happens" at a specific time in the body.

I don't know much about sleep. I'm guessing that there are differences in how much sleep people need. An interesting thing is whether you should get it all in one go, or if you can divide it. For example, is it better to sleep 8 hours every night or sleep 6 hours every night + 2 hours after dinner?

If I remember correctly, REM sleep is very important for recovery. You go in and out of REM sleep all night, with the longest periods of REM happening further out in your sleep. So getting 8 hours in one go would mean more REM time than getting 6 + 2 in different bouts.

I'm not 100% sure, but that's some place to start the investigation.

 

[Typhon]

I think I have quite a good article here, not quite as scientific as I had hoped but does go into a fair bit of detail. The first section is crap but th esecond is about promoting natural growth hormone secretion and there is a bit in there about sleep

It claims that your largest secretion of hGH is after about 1 hour of sleep but suggests that the amount that is released is affected by things like diet and could be lowered by previous sleep deficits.

Also, hyperglycemia inhibits hGH release so maybe there is an arguement there for the 'no carbs before bedtime' camp there



Still no mention of studies or specific research which would be great if anyone knows of any?

 

[Typhon]

Ah, I've found something far better here. Haven't had a chance to read it all yet but the finding that people who were woken for 2-3 hours and then returned to sleep had a second large hGH peak is very interesting

 

[blackbeard]

what the ****?! the SAID principle isn't begun in sleep.. the said principle is just something to say that you need to practice what you want to get better at, in the conditions under which you want to get better at it. Sure, a lot of stuff happens when you sleep, physiological adaptions and so forth, but the said principle isn't something that "happens" at a specific time in the body.

Don't get your knickers in a twist over the SAID principle.

Specific Adaptations to Imposed Demands principle

Principle stating that if a person is put under physical stress of varying intensities and duration, the person attempts to overcome the stress by adapting specifically to the imposed demands.

To get back on topic the classic article would have sufficed, I saw it earlier but just quoted the first two articles.

Growth hormone-releasing factor enhances sleep in rats and rabbits

F. Obal Jr, P. Alfoldi, A. B. Cady, L. Johannsen, G. Sary and J. M. Krueger
Department of Physiology and Biophysics, University of Tennessee, Memphis 38163.

Previously, it was suggested that a hypothalamic mechanism links somatotropin [growth hormone (GH)] secretion to sleep regulation, and this may explain the temporal correlation between GH release and nonrapid eye movement sleep (NREMS) on sleep onset. The purpose of these experiments was to study whether growth hormone-releasing factor (GRF), a hypothalamic peptide responsible for stimulation of GH secretion, also has the capacity to promote sleep in rats and rabbits. Artificial cerebrospinal fluid or GRF (human GRF-[1-40], 0.01, 0.1, and 1 nmol/kg) was intracerebroventricularly injected to rats at dark onset, and the electroencephalogram (EEG), brain temperature (Tbr), and motor activity were recorded for 24 h. Rabbits received the same doses of GRF during the light period, and sleep-wake activity was monitored for 6 h. GRF promoted NREMS and rapid eye movement sleep (REMS) and increased EEG slow-wave activity in both rats and rabbits. NREMS increased in postinjection hour 1 after low doses of GRF, whereas the effect was more prolonged after higher doses. REMS increased in response to the low and middle doses of GRF in postinjection hour 1 in rats and in hour 2 after each dose in rabbits. The diurnal rhythms of sleep-wake activity, motor activity, and Tbr were not affected in rats. Because GRF promotes sleep and also stimulates GH secretion, it is a likely candidate for linking GH secretion and sleep regulation.

 

[Karky]

I don't wear knickers. that article you quoted had the words interpretation of the SAID principle I have ever seen.. they had taken the principle and just put it into a whole new thing they created..

Rich: It would be interesting to see if there are negative side effects of being woken up like that which will negate the positive effects of the extra GH.

 

[Typhon]

Rich: It would be interesting to see if there are negative side effects of being woken up like that which will negate the positive effects of the extra GH.

There are a lot of pages to get through in that article but I'll get there

It would be quite a revelation if there were possible hormonal benefits to splitting sleep; I can just imagine all the BB'ers setting alarms for 3am and watching crap telly for 2 hours before letting themselves go back to bed

 

[Karky]

yeah, lol. One thing though, I'm pretty sure that waking up is really stressful for the body. I know that when we wake up, cortisol is at it's highest. So if you woke up several times, would you then have a peak cortisol level several times? I'm pretty sure that the negative effects of waking up like that would outweigh the positive effects.