Questions about Re-feeding
- Thread starter Methodman
- Start date
I don't have the time to get into specifics at the moment.... if nobody else "in the know" replies to this thread, remind me towards the end of next week once I am back from my honeymoon and I'll get into more detail.
Essentially, refeeding is a way of "tricking" your body out of starvation. As we know, dieting for prolonged periods of time trigger various physiological survival mechanisms/adaptations that will lead to a host of variables such as a slow in metabolic output/rate.
These adaptations occur due primarily to hormonal disruptions. Things such as leptin levels are "disturbed" and this leads again, to a slowdown in metabolism, hunger pangs, etc, etc.
By systematically introducing elevated carbs/cal feedings you can offset these adaptations to prolong your weight loss.
If you want the technical side of things.... read this:
Here are some other links worth reading, some a bit easier to "digest."
Lyle McDonald, IMO, is one of the best nutrition gurus out there:
Essentially, refeeding is a way of "tricking" your body out of starvation. As we know, dieting for prolonged periods of time trigger various physiological survival mechanisms/adaptations that will lead to a host of variables such as a slow in metabolic output/rate.
These adaptations occur due primarily to hormonal disruptions. Things such as leptin levels are "disturbed" and this leads again, to a slowdown in metabolism, hunger pangs, etc, etc.
By systematically introducing elevated carbs/cal feedings you can offset these adaptations to prolong your weight loss.
If you want the technical side of things.... read this:
Here are some other links worth reading, some a bit easier to "digest."
Lyle McDonald, IMO, is one of the best nutrition gurus out there:
CoachCrimson
New member
Steve, do you have anything that more about how to apply this science?
In the meantime, let me see if I have gotten this well enough anyways.
Basically, once we start to feel the negative effects (or as they say, if possible just before that point) of lowered leptin levels, we should do a planned refeed that consists of overfeeding the body glucose (or carbs that reduce to glucose) for between 12 to 48 hours at approximately 20-50% increased calories over maintenance. The larger the increase in calories, the shorter amount of time neccesary to complete the refeed.
From what I understand, doing this on an almost regular basis couldn't really hurt then right? of course, i should define what i mean by regular: planned occurences spaced far enough apart to ensure that chronic caloric deficit isnt screwed with.
Considering where I started at about 440 pounds, I assume my leptin levels must have been quite high. The studies indicate that pure fasting can kill leptin levels in under a week. My calorie reduction has been about 40% under maintanence. I have tried to ensure that I am as objective as possibly, and not letting psychology affect this evaluation, but as I reflect on my overall health in the last week or two, it becomes apparent that some of my issues may be related to lower leptin levels. But what is important to me is whether or not a 40% reduction over 9 weeks or so, could lower my leptin levels to warrant a refeed. Though weight loss has become more "bumpy" (as opposed to rather linear at first) it hasnt exactly plateaued.
But this kind of leads me back to what i meant by planned regular refeeds. So what if my weight loss hasnt stopped yet. Prevention is the best medicine right? Wouldnt it be smart to introduce refeeds at this point to prevent myself from ever hitting those stopping points? I mean, one day of overfeeding out of every 60 is still going to lead to a chronic deficit. And it seems as though it would be preventative anyways.
I would like to make sure I understand how to apply a refeed before i mess around with it. From my (very minor) understanding of refeeds prior, I was under the impression that they took upwards of a couple of weeks to complete and involved slowly ramping up calories. Perhaps I have this confused with another technique. For now, it sure seems conflicting. Also, is there enough real-world and anecdotal evidence to support refeeding? Assuming all the leptin stuff is accurate enough, I know that my weight loss adventure will last long enough to cause these problems for sure, if not several times over. Doing a chronic deficit over the course of nearly 2 years or so would surely lead to the issues mentioned in those articles.
Ill have to remember to bump this back up later on this week when steve returns, lol. Grats by the way Steve, on the wedding and all that jazz.
In the meantime, let me see if I have gotten this well enough anyways.
Basically, once we start to feel the negative effects (or as they say, if possible just before that point) of lowered leptin levels, we should do a planned refeed that consists of overfeeding the body glucose (or carbs that reduce to glucose) for between 12 to 48 hours at approximately 20-50% increased calories over maintenance. The larger the increase in calories, the shorter amount of time neccesary to complete the refeed.
From what I understand, doing this on an almost regular basis couldn't really hurt then right? of course, i should define what i mean by regular: planned occurences spaced far enough apart to ensure that chronic caloric deficit isnt screwed with.
Considering where I started at about 440 pounds, I assume my leptin levels must have been quite high. The studies indicate that pure fasting can kill leptin levels in under a week. My calorie reduction has been about 40% under maintanence. I have tried to ensure that I am as objective as possibly, and not letting psychology affect this evaluation, but as I reflect on my overall health in the last week or two, it becomes apparent that some of my issues may be related to lower leptin levels. But what is important to me is whether or not a 40% reduction over 9 weeks or so, could lower my leptin levels to warrant a refeed. Though weight loss has become more "bumpy" (as opposed to rather linear at first) it hasnt exactly plateaued.
But this kind of leads me back to what i meant by planned regular refeeds. So what if my weight loss hasnt stopped yet. Prevention is the best medicine right? Wouldnt it be smart to introduce refeeds at this point to prevent myself from ever hitting those stopping points? I mean, one day of overfeeding out of every 60 is still going to lead to a chronic deficit. And it seems as though it would be preventative anyways.
I would like to make sure I understand how to apply a refeed before i mess around with it. From my (very minor) understanding of refeeds prior, I was under the impression that they took upwards of a couple of weeks to complete and involved slowly ramping up calories. Perhaps I have this confused with another technique. For now, it sure seems conflicting. Also, is there enough real-world and anecdotal evidence to support refeeding? Assuming all the leptin stuff is accurate enough, I know that my weight loss adventure will last long enough to cause these problems for sure, if not several times over. Doing a chronic deficit over the course of nearly 2 years or so would surely lead to the issues mentioned in those articles.
Ill have to remember to bump this back up later on this week when steve returns, lol. Grats by the way Steve, on the wedding and all that jazz.
Hey Coach.... again this will be an abbreviated response as I'm still traveling. However, with the large people I've worked with (these being predominantly 300-350+ lb women) I never found refeeds necessary. Leptin is directly and mostly correlated with body fat stores. Yes, prolonged energy deficits can skew leptin stores, but refeeds are not the solution. I've found that with this population of people.... if and when weight loss plateaus, simply bump cals up for a week. In essence, take a break from dieting for several days. This is usually enough to get the ball rolling again.
As with everything surrounding training and nutrition, I ALWAYS prefer to keep things simple and introduce complex strategies only when NEEDED. And things such as refeeds have never been required in my experience until people are closer to their set point weights.
When you say this:
You are partly right.
We have 2 cases. Someone whose dieted using extreme techniques for a prolonged period of time. On the flip-side we have lean individuals who have done things "right" and need to get leaner still. Think fitness competitors or even someone like me during a "cut."
Both cases deal with physiological adaptations that have occurred in response to dieting.
In the prior group though, and this is what you were confusing the concept of refeeds with, we are essentially resetting all the various metabolic processes associated with dieting as they've all down-regulated due to the extreme dieting. This simply requires a re-introduction of calories using systematic ramp-ups over time until we are eating around maintenance. Once this is done, we can start dieting using sane principles.
Sane will be dependent on starting place too. You have someone in your shoes at 400+ lbs.... you can certainly stand to cut calories to the extent that you currently are. By stand, I mean your body will not "fight" you doing this as much as someone closer to my shoes. Follow me?
With the latter group, we aren't necessarily resetting metabolic componenents.... though we are indirectly. Essentially, someone whom is already low in body fat, maybe even below their natural set-point weight, still looking to shed fat, will face "hurdles" a lot more consistently and quickly with any form of dieting. Essentially, our bodies will "fight" our every attempt to shed fat. We are physiologically geared to store fat for survival, so losing fat below our natural set-points is very unnatural. Our bodies are setup in a way to assure we DON'T lose fat to this point.
This is where things such as refeeds come into play. We are "faking out" our bodies by making it "think" it is in the fed state by "toying around" with the various hormonal constituents associated with dieting/starvation. In essence, we keep the starvation response mechanism at bay even though under normal circumstances it would be triggered quickly.
I'm tired, sun burned, and totally out of my element at the moment.... so not sure if any of this made sense. If you have more questions, want more detailed explanations, or want to discuss further.... certainly feel free to continue to the convo. I won't be back in action probably until Friday.... but who knows.
P.S. Coach, I forget if I recommended to you the book "Practical Programming." Did I? If not, you need it.
Can't wait till I can order that and mark's sister book to that next week, hopefully.
Best 2 books I've ever read in terms of true applicability.... and I've read a lot of books. There are certainly more detailed books out there, but that's not why these books are good.
And they certainly (especially practical programming) aren't a cookie cutter approach to strength coaching. They help the reader understand the underlying variables at play and let you be the "artist."
Management of fatigue is heavily stressed which is usually under-emphasized, which I really respect.
I'll just shut up.... I can't say enough about these books. I think ANYONE who is in charge of someone else's training structure should be REQUIRED to read these books.
Yeah, They look really good. Right now, I'm really enjoying Exercise Physiology: Energy, Nutrition, and Human Performance 6th. One of the best books I'v read on the subject to date. Definitely not a good read for beginners/N00bs though. Marks two main books sound like they could benefit both the new and experienced individuals.
CoachCrimson
New member
Thanks for responding Steve. and so soon even while on vacation, lol. Im in no hurry on this subject, so have fun and we can catch up more on this when you get back.
The mind and muscle articles seemed to continuously refer to obesity studies and such, which is why I was thinking that maybe it was something that would apply to more people than just those already quite lean. Previously, I had never bothered to learn much about it simply because I have never been lean enough to need it. But with that article I thought it might even apply to me at this point. Good to know that it really isnt a neccesary thing for me to incorporate, as i think trying to stuff 6k calories into my body in 12 hours would seriously screw with my head at this point, lol.
The articles also mentioned a method or two about how to figure out your set-point. from my understanding, knowing your own personal set-point would make it easier to predict when a refeed is going to be neccesary. But the method described would only work for someone who has been under their set point and can sway in both directions enough to feel for it. Is there a way to determine my own set point? I have never been lean, and I am a long ways off from it now as well. Not only would knowing my set point now help me to predict my nutrition needs down the road, it would help me predict what my real goals are going to be, rather than choosing some arbitrary number a few hunderd pounds lower than what I currently am, lol. Perhaps I may never need need to worry about leptin and refeeds, as I am not interested in becoming any kind of physique competitor, and my choice of athletic events does not require significantly low levels of bodyfat. But if my setpoint is higher then maybe I might need this info... either way, ive got at least another 100 pounds before it even starts to become relevant to me personally, lol.
The name of that book doesnt sound familiar, but then again there was quite a few books in the list of suggestions you gave me, lol. I will make practical programming priority number 2 alongside supertraining.
The mind and muscle articles seemed to continuously refer to obesity studies and such, which is why I was thinking that maybe it was something that would apply to more people than just those already quite lean. Previously, I had never bothered to learn much about it simply because I have never been lean enough to need it. But with that article I thought it might even apply to me at this point. Good to know that it really isnt a neccesary thing for me to incorporate, as i think trying to stuff 6k calories into my body in 12 hours would seriously screw with my head at this point, lol.
The articles also mentioned a method or two about how to figure out your set-point. from my understanding, knowing your own personal set-point would make it easier to predict when a refeed is going to be neccesary. But the method described would only work for someone who has been under their set point and can sway in both directions enough to feel for it. Is there a way to determine my own set point? I have never been lean, and I am a long ways off from it now as well. Not only would knowing my set point now help me to predict my nutrition needs down the road, it would help me predict what my real goals are going to be, rather than choosing some arbitrary number a few hunderd pounds lower than what I currently am, lol. Perhaps I may never need need to worry about leptin and refeeds, as I am not interested in becoming any kind of physique competitor, and my choice of athletic events does not require significantly low levels of bodyfat. But if my setpoint is higher then maybe I might need this info... either way, ive got at least another 100 pounds before it even starts to become relevant to me personally, lol.
The name of that book doesnt sound familiar, but then again there was quite a few books in the list of suggestions you gave me, lol. I will make practical programming priority number 2 alongside supertraining.
Coach:
You will most likely never need to utilize refeeds. And you don't need to worry about your setpoint. If you were ever to use refeeds, the reflection in the mirror would be good enough to decide if you need them or not. In essence, if you are lean, you MAY need ot use them. That's all.
Practical programming is a much easier read than Supertraining. If you want to take a timeout from supertraining, this would be a great place to start. Actually, I'd read starting strenght first, than practical programming. Both are written by the same author. And both are relatively easy reads, when compared to supertraining.
You will most likely never need to utilize refeeds. And you don't need to worry about your setpoint. If you were ever to use refeeds, the reflection in the mirror would be good enough to decide if you need them or not. In essence, if you are lean, you MAY need ot use them. That's all.
Practical programming is a much easier read than Supertraining. If you want to take a timeout from supertraining, this would be a great place to start. Actually, I'd read starting strenght first, than practical programming. Both are written by the same author. And both are relatively easy reads, when compared to supertraining.