Bulking time... thinking about a stack.

Darth Pooh

Darth Pooh

New member
This thread is obviously for Steve. But, I wanted others with knowledge to give feedback if they have it. I don't want to post this over at the fitness side because my heart belongs here and there is ;)

I am going to start a bulk next week. But I want to minimize fat gains... my diet is going to be in check (basically almost the same diet I had in a cut, just bigger portions).

I am also thinking about taking a few supplements to help with fat oxidation:

Green Tea Extract
TTA
Sesamin
Fish Oil
CLA

As well as Liver Tabs at meals and BC/EAA's during workout.

Any thoughts?

Thanks guys.
 
Truthfully...

I wouldn't be taking that stuff while bulking. It's just not necessary. I mean, get your concern about wanting to minimize fat gain. The way to do that is to ensure you're in a controlled surplus. Where your body stores said surplus is going to be determined more by your training and genetics than anything you're eating or taking.

Unless you're sticking a needle in your ass, that is.

Net fat oxidation is going to be nill since you're in a surplus.

CLA, for instance, has proven useless in these situations in my experience. Research, at least the unbiased research, agrees.


Conjugated linoleic acid intake in humans: a systematic review focusing on its effect on body composition, glucose, and lipid metabolism.

Salas-Salvad? J, M?rquez-Sandoval F, Bull? M. Crit Rev Food Sci Nutr. 2006;46(6):479-88.

Studies performed on different species show that the consumption of conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) leads to a loss of fat and total body weight, reduces the plasma concentrations of total and LDL cholesterol, and has an antiinflammatory effect. This article reviews the clinical trials on human beings that evaluate how mixtures of CLA isomers administered as supplements or CLA-enriched products can affect total body weight, body composition, plasma lipid profile, glycemia, insulinemia, insulin sensitivity, lipid oxidation, and inflammation. After analyzing the few studies published to date in reduced samples of healthy humans or patients with overweight, obesity, metabolic syndrome, or diabetes, we deduce that there is not enough evidence to show that conjugated linoleic acid has an effect on weight and body composition in humans. However, some of these studies have observed that the administration of various CLA isomers has adverse effects on lipid profile (it decreases HDL cholesterol concentration and increases Lp(a) circulating levels), glucose metabolism (glycemia, insulinemia or insulin sensitivity), lipid oxidation, inflammation, or endothelial function. Therefore, long-term randomized clinical trials, controlled with placebo, need to be made in large samples of patients to evaluate the efficacy and safety of CLA isomers before its indiscriminate use in human beings can be recommended.
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Effects of conjugated linoleic acid supplementation during resistance training on body composition, bone density, strength, and selected hematological markers.

Kreider RB, Ferreira MP, Greenwood M, Wilson M, Almada AL. J Strength Cond Res. 2002 Aug;16(3):325-34.

Conjugated linoleic acids (CLA) are essential fatty acids that have been reported in animal studies to decrease catabolism, promote fat loss, increase bone density, enhance immunity, and serve as an antiatherogenic and anticarcinogenic agent. For this reason, CLA has been marketed as a supplement to promote weight loss and general health. CLA has also been heavily marketed to resistance-trained athletes as a supplement that may help lessen catabolism, decrease body fat, and promote greater gains in strength and muscle mass during training. Although basic research is promising, few studies have examined whether CLA supplementation during training enhances training adaptations and/or affects markers of health. This study evaluated whether CLA supplementation during resistance training affects body composition, strength, and/or general markers of catabolism and immunity. In a double-blind and randomized manner, 23 experienced, resistance-trained subjects were matched according to body mass and training volume and randomly assigned to supplement their diet with 9 g;pdd(-1) of an olive oil placebo or 6 g;pdd(-1) of CLA with 3 g;pdd(-1) of fatty acids for 28 days. Prior to and following supplementation, fasting blood samples, total body mass, and dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry (DEXA) determined body composition, and isotonic bench press and leg press 1 repetition maximums (1RMs) were determined. Results revealed that although some statistical trends were observed with moderate to large effect sizes, CLA supplementation did not significantly affect (p > 0.05) changes in total body mass, fat-free mass, fat mass, percent body fat, bone mass, strength, serum substrates, or general markers of catabolism and immunity during training. These findings indicate that CLA does not appear to possess significant ergogenic value for experienced resistance-trained athletes.
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Treatment with dietary trans10cis12 conjugated linoleic acid causes isomer-specific insulin resistance in obese men with the metabolic syndrome.

Diabetes Care. 2002 Sep;25(9):1516-21. Ris?rus U, Arner P, Brismar K, Vessby B.

OBJECTIVE: Conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) is a group of dietary fatty acids with antiobesity and antidiabetic effects in some animals. The trans10cis12 (t10c12) CLA isomer seems to cause these effects, including improved insulin sensitivity. Whether such isomer-specific effects occur in humans is unknown. The aim of this study was to investigate whether t10c12 CLA or a commercial CLA mixture could improve insulin sensitivity, lipid metabolism, or body composition in obese men with signs of the metabolic syndrome. RESEARCH DESIGN AND METHODS: In a randomized, double-blind controlled trial, abdominally obese men (n = 60) were treated with 3.4 g/day CLA (isomer mixture), purified t10c12 CLA, or placebo. Euglycemic-hyperinsulinemic clamp, serum hormones, lipids, and anthropometry were assessed before and after 12 weeks of treatment. RESULTS: Baseline metabolic status was similar between groups. Unexpectedly, t10c12 CLA increased insulin resistance (19%; P < 0.01) and glycemia (4%; P < 0.001) and reduced HDL cholesterol (-4%; P < 0.01) compared with placebo, whereas body fat, sagittal abdominal diameter, and weight decreased versus baseline, but the difference was not significantly different from placebo. The CLA mixture did not change glucose metabolism, body composition, or weight compared with placebo but lowered HDL cholesterol.(-2%; P < 0.05). CONCLUSIONS: These results reveal important isomer-specific metabolic actions of CLA in abdominally obese humans. A CLA-induced insulin resistance has previously been described only in lipodystrophic mice. Considering the use of CLA-supplements among obese individuals, it is important to clarify the clinical consequences of these results, but they also provide physiological insights into the role of specific dietary fatty acids as modulators of insulin resistance in humans.
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Effects of cis-9,trans-11 conjugated linoleic acid supplementation on insulin sensitivity, lipid peroxidation, and proinflammatory markers in obese men.

Am J Clin Nutr. 2004 Aug;80(2):279-83. Ris?rus U, Vessby B, Arnl?v J, Basu S.

BACKGROUND: We recently showed that trans-10,cis-12 (t10,c12) conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) causes insulin resistance in obese men. However, metabolic effects of the c9,t11 CLA isomer are still unknown in obese men. Because c9,t11 CLA is the predominant CLA isomer in foods and is included in dietary weight-loss products, it is important to conduct randomized controlled studies that use c9,t11 CLA preparations. OBJECTIVE: We investigated the effects of c9,t11 CLA supplementation on insulin sensitivity, body composition, and lipid peroxidation in a group at high risk for cardiovascular disease. DESIGN: In a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study, 25 abdominally obese men received 3 g c9,t11 CLA/d or placebo (olive oil). Before and after 3 mo of supplementation, we assessed insulin sensitivity (hyperinsulinemic euglycemic clamp), lipid metabolism, body composition, and urinary 8-iso-prostaglandin F(2alpha) (a major F(2)-isoprostane) and 15-keto-dihydro-prostaglandin F(2alpha), markers of in vivo oxidative stress and inflammation, respectively. RESULTS: All subjects completed the study. Compared with placebo, c9,t11 CLA decreased insulin sensitivity by 15% (P < 0.05) and increased 8-iso-prostaglandin F(2alpha) and 15-keto-dihydro-prostaglandin F(2alpha) excretion by 50% (P < 0.01) and 15% (P < 0.05), respectively. The decreased insulin sensitivity was independent of changes in serum lipids, glycemia, body mass index, and body fat but was abolished after adjustment for changes in 8-iso-prostaglandin F(2alpha) concentrations. There were no differences between groups in body composition. CONCLUSIONS: A CLA preparation containing the purified c9,t11 CLA isomer increased insulin resistance and lipid peroxidation compared with placebo in obese men. Because c9,t11 CLA occurs in commercial supplements as well as in the diet, the present results should be confirmed in larger studies that also include women.
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Sesamin I haven't heard much good about. Actually opposite from quite a few people whom are more intelligent than me and whom I sincerely respect.

Fish oils I'm always down with.

I wouldn't waste your money on TetradecylThioacetic Acid.

Also, I don't see much a point to take extra amino acids if you're eating adequate protein and drinking whey.

Short of it is, if you ask me, save your money.
 
Good advice. I think I'll save the Supps for my cutting periods.

I will cut out the CLA's at the end of this week (I was taking them for good fats during my cut, so I thought it would be beneficial during my bulk as well, perhaps I'll up my Fish Oils, but I am already at 7.2 grams per day).

I took TTA on my last cut phase, I am not sure if it had any DETRIMENTAL effects, I know I went from 15% BF to about 10-11%. So, I think it had something to do with the stack of things, including the EC.

I take the BC/EAA's with Beta Alanine for the pump in the gym (as opposed to drinking something like Creatine) not so much for the amino's, I suppose I could drink a caffeine drink instead. But my mix is fairly cheap... 15 bucks for 33 servings and it has a complete profile, 4:1:1... Legal Gear makes it.
 
If you've found certain things to be effective, don't let me deter you from continuing their use. The research I've seen and the experiences I've seen, there isn't much under the sun I'd be willing to a) spend money on and b) put in my body.

The bang for the buck, if there's any at all, simply isn't worth it in my mind.

Creatine is a nice supp, assuming you don't have a genetically high level of creatine in your system already. Aminos don't compare.
 
Steve said:
If you've found certain things to be effective, don't let me deter you from continuing their use. The research I've seen and the experiences I've seen, there isn't much under the sun I'd be willing to a) spend money on and b) put in my body.

The bang for the buck, if there's any at all, simply isn't worth it in my mind.

Creatine is a nice supp, assuming you don't have a genetically high level of creatine in your system already. Aminos don't compare.
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I've seen some research that states that Beta Alanine can be beneficial as Creatine but without the bloat.

For sure, I believe my CLA, Green Tea, Fish Oil stack has helped with my weight loss.
 
Sorry, this adds nothing to the discussion, but when I read the title of the thread I thought it said "Bulking time... thinking about a steak." And I came in to register that I too was thinking about a steak for dinner :D
 
Yup! Speaking of which, it's great being on more calories again :)

Outback for dinner...

Seared Ahi Tuna, Salad with a tad of 1000 Island dressing, Tilapia crowned with Crab Meat and Steamed Fresh Veggies, omg so good.

;)
 
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